The Lekker Rugby Pod: Has the URC Forged a Genuine SA-Ireland Rivalry?

Opening

MW Welman: This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. Welcome back to the Lekker Rugby Pod and Pat McCarry is back by popular demand. Harry, you're not going to do an introduction again, we know him by now, he's like I said very, very popular. And we're going to talk about this brooding, brewing Irish South African rivalry because at the end of the day it looks like it's going to be an Irish South African quarterfinals again. Welcome back.

Pat McCarry: Hey, thanks very much for having me. And yeah, it's shaping up nicely, isn't it? The little bit of rivalry there. So hopefully we get a few of these kind of South African versus Irish, you know, knockout games against each other. And there's a bit of spice like the Sharks-Munster one last year, a little bit of kind of drama like that. And yeah, that'll, that'll, that'll really make things heat up there as we get towards the final.

MW Welman: Has it been a year already? I can't believe it. Winkgate, a year ago.

Pat McCarry: Yeah, Winkgate. Yeah, yeah. We're still, we're still not, we're still not over that one yet.

MW Welman: Well, and you never will anyway. Let's talk about Leinster. I mean, before we talk about Leinster, let's talk about Glasgow, because we said it's Irish South African thing, but Glasgow is right at the top of the table, and they're probably going to stay there. So I mean, we're not, you know, discounting our Scottish friends yet, because you know, Glasgow is our second favourite team. All South Africans support Glasgow because of the South African connection. But I'm going to hand it over to Harry, because he's got a couple questions for you on this Irish rivalry.

On the Seeds of Rivalry

Harry Jones: Oh, yeah. So if the measure was this, if you said, Pat, if you said in the top eight, as eventually the eight, how many of the coaches and captains of those teams are South African, and how many are Irish, and how many are Scottish, it's going to be still very Irish and South African. So there is the seeds of a longer rivalry, that it has club antecedents, but it takes place on test level. That is, you know, there's ammunition to argue forever, all year round, because of this. I mean, we're really getting drawn into a very strong relationship of love hate, aren't we?

Pat McCarry: Yeah, yeah, definitely. They're like, like, even, you know, as soon as the last test match was over there, last November, we were looking to see when are they kind of going to meet each other again. And thankfully, it's later this year. And, you know, there's all there, like, and then yeah, as we're talking about there, some of the other rivalries, like, you know, Leinster would find it tough against the likes of the Bulls and finally get over that hump. And then you had, you know, Munster and Sharks as well. Like, so then we had Connacht, I'm sure we'll kind of get on to them. And even though Harry might not want to talk about them much, Connacht kind of heading down and kind of doing a number as well. Then we have Leinster sending their up and comers, almost down to get christened and baptised down in South Africa and smashed around the place as their kind of early learning centre. And yeah, there's loads of narratives coming up. And it's like I grew up and, you know, getting up early to watch some of those Super Rugby games and Super 10 and Super 12. And and yeah, you'd always be jealous of the rivalry between the South Africans and the New Zealand sides as well. So we're getting there. Like, you know, as the years go on, hopefully that rivalry will kind of grow even more. And it's one of those rivalries that we earn a little bit of respect from each other by taking lumps out of each other, too.

Harry Jones: You know, I think the seeds of rivalry are interesting. Obviously, in leagues, you have some ability to create them. But normally, the best rivalries are organic and they normally are between neighbours, to be honest. You know, the fact that Leinster and Munster have such a juicy rivalry, Stormers and Bulls, goes way back, you know, to the 1930s. And there's perceived grievance. That's what it is. You know, Munster coming and beating the Stormers or, you know, Leinster doing it to the Bulls. And the discourse, Rassie talked about it, redemption or rectification or whatever. It starts to almost sound theological. And I know from the Irish side, this is my impression, maybe I'm wrong. And I just feel like both of us are awkward boxers on banter. Like you can think you've landed a good one on an Irishman. And then if it really landed, what he'll do is he'll say, no, you've just offended the Saint so and so who died in 1844. You're like, fuck it, man, I wasn't trying to offend your ancestors, I'm just pronouncing whatever you were eating. And so, and then South Africans have a slippery way as well, because we can go into sort of that, you know, same shell in some ways. And also, we're very blunt sometimes. So maybe we overstep. I did that to Connacht. So how's it gonna work? You know, what is this thing gonna look like? What is this crazy thing gonna look like?

Pat McCarry: Yeah, but it is that kind of thing, isn't it where, and it's only since that rivalry has kind of grown, maybe since if you go back to, like, it's funny to stuff that it's kind of we celebrate here in Ireland, and then that it's would be kind of like chastised or kind of like, I can't believe, you know, that that's why I was given, I'd kind of forgotten all about Ronan O'Gara taking a quick tap penalty, when the Boks were kind of...

MW Welman: We haven't forgotten that.

Pat McCarry: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for reminding me, I had forgotten about it, but now it's right back in my head again.

Harry Jones: Shit, man, sorry.

Pat McCarry: It's just kind of like that he was being smart and he did this thing. And then, like, I just saw a South African kind of going, I'll never forget about this. And I was like, I'd watched it back, I was like, yeah, he kind of like took the piss there, really. Like, and so maybe from that moment, that was the genesis of this kind of new, you know, rivalry. And then there was maybe a few years even before that, it was when Ireland went over and the South African, Dion O'Cuinneagain, kind of, you know, that kind of South African Irish links that he had. And there was the slugfest when they kind of played against each other in the late nineties and so it's been brewing up for the last kind of, you know, 20, 20, 25, 30 years, like so. And now we have the clubs kind of sprinkling their little bit of spice into it as well. So but yeah, only in the last while, like you kind of like some people would kind of talk about Welsh rugby Twitter or South African rugby Twitter. And if you kind of, as kind of Harry said, you kind of offend an Irishman by kind of, you know, saying something about his ancestors or the lands that they stood on or walking in the door the wrong way or, or anything like that, or as Rory McIlroy even did kind of slagging Irish food as well. He's probably not allowed to come home now after doing that. But yeah, like then at the same time, like if you say something and it's an African, all of a sudden you say the wrong thing, South African rugby Twitter comes after you and gets you as well. And sometimes you have to just tap out, just don't, don't reply anymore. Just take a break for two or three days, two or three months, like.

Harry Jones: Isn't it a bit of love? You know, you only get to like, when you really are sledging, as Ozzy would say, your brother, it's delightful. Like your best friend, you're roasting each other all day long. I think we're getting there. Ulster has had so many Safas in and about. Munster had Rassie, you know, the number one Safa. And so many other people. I mean, it's, it's good and, you know, RG doing his thing, you know, the Elchies Neyman Esk Express going from, maybe he goes to the, maybe he goes to Connacht next, maybe he goes to Ulster next. We know each other finally. We finally know each other, there's stuff that we can bring up, there's, you know, the fluttering wounded drop goal that goes over by Frawley that still unknifes me in the soul. You know, we finally get there. Isn't it cool? I mean, I don't know. Like, I think sport needs more.

Pat McCarry: Yeah, yeah, that was it. And like, yeah, like I mentioned the kind of Kiwis there as well. Like I always remember like going and being lucky enough to kind of do a couple of foreign tours. You know, you talk to the likes of like Retallick or Nanu and you would say to them like, who, like what Irish players are you thinking about playing? And they'd be like, Brian O'Driscoll. And you'd say, oh, he's retired. And they'd be like, oh yeah, lots of them like, you know, like, and you'd be like, these guys don't respect us because we haven't done it. And it's only when you start kind of taking a few scalps every now and then that they respect you. Like, and that's it. Like, that's why it feels maybe, you know, as an Irish kind of, you know, rugby supporter as well, that we're kind of, I sometimes talk about us being at the top table and getting kicked off the top table and we're bouncing back and forth, you know, like, but yeah, it's only kind of when there's increased lag and you know, that you'd be ignored if you weren't doing anything like, you know, if you're like a Welsh rugby supporter right now and you're kind of nipping at the heels, you might just get ignored. But Ireland's kind of there and their teams and clubs and test teams are kind of making a bit of a difference. Like, so yeah, it's good to see. It's great to see.

On the Bulls-Leinster Semi-Final

MW Welman: I was, I was, well, everybody knows and everybody in his dog knows that I spent a week at the Bulls. And one of the things I heard there was, and I'm going to talk about this in very general terms, but that semi-final against Leinster, the first season, I remember 7-6 I think the score was. And three of the Bulls players were very specifically instructed, the only thing you do today is you fuck the living daylights out of Johnny Sexton and he ended up running away from them all the time. So there's a lot of rivalry going there. And it was actually a plan. I never knew that. I mean, what did Leinster feel like? These upstarts from down south, pitching up there and winning a semi-final in Ireland. I mean, that must have been part of the seeds of this growing rivalry.

Pat McCarry: Yeah, yeah. And that was kind of, it wasn't expected. It was like kind of, you know, like a superhero movie where like you defeat the main villain and all of a sudden some guy comes out of the shadows and just like, you know, hits you with a frying pan and you're like, who's this? And they unmask themselves like in Springbok jersey underneath or something like that. But and it was kind of like that because, and then the big fear was almost like that because I suppose out of the kind of like the Rainbow Cup and the Pro 14 and, you know, we'd kind of had the likes of the Cheetahs and kind of like they were almost kind of facsimiles of proper South African sides and now all of a sudden you had the real deal coming to town and coming to the home of the best team and walking away with a win. And it was like, oh shit, here we go. Like there's, you know, it's a new game in town as well. And it's been great for the United Rugby Championship because now there's like some heavyweights there and like it's a shame like the South African sides can't play all their big boys all the time. But you know that when you go and tour there, you're going to have to have some hell of a kind of few weeks to kind of get out of there with like even one win. Like so they can be kind of chastening experiences for some sides as Leinster found at the start of the season. And, you know, it's very easy to lose 60, 70 points, you know, like so they're tough kind of goings as well. But yeah, that was it. And the only thing that's kind of surprised me now so far is that and it is tough on them and you can kind of, you have to acknowledge that. But that South African side hasn't really kind of gone super deep in the Champions Cup then as well. Like because, you know, my thinking at the time when Leinster kept getting to these finals was one of these years the South Africans are going to, you know, get a growl, get a love for this kind of competition. And, you know, we're going to be screwed then. Like so let's win while we can. I suppose it was my thinking.

Harry Jones: Yeah, it's incremental, though. There was progress in the sense that it came down to final moments and it was close. But also it's very difficult to imagine it because an old established Bok is really a liability to have in the team. So they're mostly going to be shipped off and then at suitable times in their career right now going to Japan. And South Africa doesn't import any special need, you know, fit in perfect tool kit, kind of, you know, Jordie Barrett types. So difficult to imagine. But, you know, turning to the ERC, it's been really a fascinating season. And it occurs to me, we should probably just work through your provinces one by one. And we'll start with Leinster because, you know, box office, they've had a funny old season, like you say, starting out terrible. Pants pulled down. But they're built for the end. They're built for knockouts. Now they are literally sitting looking there going, we could do a double. We're one of the few teams that could do a double. And who would bet against who would bet a lot against that is what I guess my question.

On Leinster's Season

Pat McCarry: Yeah, yeah. Like in terms of going for the double, like the they're just lucky that they're over when a good side of the draw on the Champions Cup as well, where the rest of the boys are like slicing each other's legs off. And if by chance somehow Bordeaux can kind of fall before they get to the final, you know, you'd be very confident. But yeah, that's kind of worked out well for them. People are, you know, up here, like kind of close to us are kind of complaining again that Leinster have got a home, you know, a Viva semi-final again. And that wouldn't have happened if Glasgow had won. They got beaten by Toulon as well. So so it's kind of the cards have fallen in Leinster's favour again. So very much in the show for that. And that is it. Yeah, it's a very tough season for them. Like you could even see that like a lot of their players were, I don't know, they're only kind of they're only starting to play their first proper games around kind of, you know, end of October. So they were kind of really getting fed into the team. They've really had to dip into the academy and younger, you know, younger lads. And like Leo Cullen was kind of saying that as well after I think I was lucky enough, I think bumped into like Hugh Griffin there, who was at that kind of Scarlets game when Leinster won. And and Leo was kind of we were both at that press conference and Leo Cullen was saying like, you know, yeah, like it's we're only now getting hold of our proper team, like, you know, and exactly. Yeah. And it's almost like, so where do you think you're at? And he's like, I'll tell you in a couple of weeks where we're at, because now it's finally like he's got all the toys.

On Leinster's Depth and Injury Challenges

Brenden Nel: You can start piecing them together and playing with them now. And you can even see there, they went up to Ulster there last weekend and like they only had three starters from the Champions Cup, but yet they still had, you know, Ring Rose, Henshaw, you know, just ready-made kind of like Luke McGrath, Sam Prendergast as well. Like and these are guys that weren't even featuring like so. Yeah, it's they're finally kind of getting going. They have all their big boys coming back. And now it's like, as you said, Harry, like now we'll know how they're built for the run in and they get everybody fit and primed for the run in. And the only problem is they're very, very short of loose heads at the moment. So much so that they have to go back and get one of their old guys, Ed Byrne, back from Cardiff. And just because it's just anybody who I don't know, there's some kind of there's a curse on loose heads at length through the season. So they've had to kind of go get Ed Byrne back. He kind of played against Ulster the other night. But they're other than that, they're just they're they're stocked, they're fully loaded and they're ready to kind of run for these last few weeks of the season.

Andrew Mehrtens: It would be the least funny outcome, you know, if they were to repeat. And also, you know, because they're so good, so loaded, there's a lot of sort of Lannister hatred. And it's not even just outside from outside of Ireland, right? There's plenty from inside of Ireland. And, you know, never less than anything or whatever their tagline is stuff people like to mock. But on the other hand, it would feed the rivalry because rivalries also feed off of one team doing really for a while for a while so that everyone's obsessed with destroying them. You know, that's that's part of rivalry, isn't it?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, that's it. Like I have a friend who's like a big, you know, like soccer fan and he loves like Manchester United. But he was talking about like in the Champions League as well. He prefers when the big teams that have won all them win again, because he's like, you don't want some outsiders coming in and kind of like cheapening the competition by by winning it. Like you don't want Lyon to win it one year. We want Real Madrid. We want Ajax. We want Bayern Munich. You know, Juventus, Liverpool, Man United. And we want that like because it means more when it's just the big dogs kind of fighting over it. So and Leinster are kind of one of them. Like so and that's it. You guys haven't even like I say you guys like being South African and coming up and seeing this like there's a bit of Leinster, but you haven't seen them at their full swagger yet. Like, you know, we can we can kind of we can get even cockier. We can get even kind of more braggadocious as well, like and and really start flicking it around the place. So we can get more obnoxious and come up with even worse kind of phrases.

Andrew Mehrtens: It feeds into dynastic duels, right? Dynasties are the thing of sports. And I think you're right. Everyone studied it. You got to have a Liverpool and a Man U and you got to, you know, the Celtics and the Lakers. Those things build rivalries because they're forever revenges.

On the Flyhalf Debate

Andrew Mehrtens: So talk us through the one current before we go to the provinces. There's the current of who was the proper 10, you know, the story of Sam. It's sort of a sad story in some ways and a cautionary tale of elevating people before they're ready.

Brenden Nel: Yeah, yeah. And funnily enough, Harry Byrne, a guy who was elevated before he was ready, has now benefited from this. So he's the top man now at Leinster as well, because Harry Byrne back in 2021 got jumped ahead of the queue, got a few games for Ireland in a kind of summer test series, and they played Japan and USA. And it was like, what about Ross, his older brother? What about, you know, Frawley? What about this guy? And it was like, no, Harry Byrne's the man. And then he got injuries, you know, riddled, kind of confidence, took a hit. He just got dumped. And now he's kind of climbed himself back, you know, like Bane climbed out of the big huge hole and, you know, got fresh daylight on his face. But for Sam, he's kind of experienced in that now. Like he had a tough Six Nations, kind of got dropped without sight then for the last three games, came back, played a couple of games for Leinster, but the confidence wasn't back. Like he just took such a shellacking, like, you know, he's still only a young man. Like, and he was kind of seen as like, I suppose the embodiment of this kind of Leinster player has been fast-tracked to the international team and skipped ahead of other players from other provinces. So like he was the unfortunate poster boy of that in the eyes of many people. And, you know, he kind of, I think Jack Crowley is back where he belongs. He's still like not 100% of a perfect player, but like he probably never should have been kind of dropped from that 10 jersey from Ireland. Prendergast should have been his apprentice and got the odd start every now and then. But now we're in the situation where Prendergast isn't even making Champions Cup squads like and, you know, here on Frawley, he's heading to Connacht in the summer, is kind of backing up on the bench now as well. So it's tough for him, but at the weekend, at least it was a chink of light. Sam started against Ulster, got man of the match as well and kind of, you know, had a really good game, scored a try. All the talk over here is like, he's changed his position on the kicking tee. He's not doing this anymore. It's much more upright. So he's taken a bit of advice on board, had a good kick in game against Ulster too. So that might make a difference. But for now, yeah, Harry Byrne is the main man and there's almost like no debate at the moment. They've picked their horse, they're backing Harry Byrne for the rest of the season and he's doing well. He's just solid. Like, yeah, like he's not doing anything too flashy, but he's doing the job and kind of he's got, he's good off the tee as well. So that's it. Now, again, who knows? There could be an injury or anything could get, you know, tossed against the fan and blitzed. But for now, Harry Byrne is the man and yeah, Leinster are starting to kind of get motoring here a little bit. I think they got 92 points in their two Champions Cup games, 13 tries. Like, so, you know, people are expecting perfection from them, but they're bubbling. It's bubbling to the surface, hopefully.

On Social Media and Young Players

Andrew Mehrtens: You know, people are very rude nowadays on social media and there's nothing that brings out more rude speech in rugby fans than 10 debates. The debates that fly off are just, I don't know, it's time immemorial. It's been going on. It's just much more accessible now and it's hard to tell a guy who's 22, 23, 24 to not look at social media. They live online and it's how they do their business and so forth and date and marry and all that. So, you know, we've had recently John Dobson, coach for the Stormers, come out and talk about some of that. The effect on a guy like Mani Lobako or Sasha Feinberg and Gomezulu is quite immense and, you know, they have people around them helping them. But did any of that come, did that happen with Sam Prendergast in the Jack Crowley debate or was, am I missing something?

Brenden Nel: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it got, yeah, it was pretty, pretty one-sided. Like there wouldn't have been a lot of kind of like animus against kind of Jack Crowley. It would have been, like, it might be kind of more technical stuff, like he's flawed or, you know, he's kicking stats off that aren't great or something. But for Prendergast, it got, yeah, it seemed to get very personal. Like, you know, like, and who does this guy think he is and can't defend for anything. And there'd be kind of clips that would be, you know, put together. Like, you know, you can go and find any clip in a game of somebody kind of making a mistake or something. There'd be compilation clips, you know, put together and it was like, look how bad this guy is or doing a tackle in slow motion and seeing how bad it was going. So, yeah, you just hope for his sake that he wasn't on it, you know, like, but then I think even I spoke to, I remember speaking to Sam, I think last summer, and he was kind of saying, like, even if you're avoiding it, somebody will say, oh, listen, don't worry about that article that that person wrote or, oh, listen, don't worry about that clip that's gone viral. And you'd be like, what clip is this? Like, you know.

Andrew Mehrtens: Thanks for reminding me.

Brenden Nel: Yeah, yeah. Like, I think, funnily enough, I think Dan Biggar was speaking about it during the Six Nations, and he just said the best thing he ever did was just not have social media, because he said he remembers getting onto a team bus and just seeing all of his teammates were just immediately on their phones, checking ratings and going on to social media. And he just said, from that moment onwards, I just deleted everything I had and I didn't bother with it again. And I think he's back on it now that he has his own podcast to sell and promote. But as a player, he made the wise choice and stayed away.

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, it's almost like the old boxers. Remember, they would go to camp and we go to the mountains and no women, no suites, no access to the outside world. And it was really important in high performance. And perhaps that's the way to do it is to say there are portions of the season where blackouts are just not going to look at stuff because it doesn't do you any good. I was hearing this podcast by a guy who wrote for the New York Times, David Brooks. And he got this dream job, columnist for the New York Times. It was the pinnacle for journalists for him. And he said, I was depressed for the first six months because I read the comments. And he said, readers are really good at finding the true parts of your personality that are deficient. And it's not you weren't mad at the falsity, you were actually mad at the truth. You know, I don't know. It's just tough nowadays. So I wouldn't dwell on it.

On Ulster's Resurgence

Andrew Mehrtens: But here's a better moment. We're not going to go to the next province being Munster. We're going to Ulster. Talk to me about Ulster because they're the second best.

Brenden Nel: Yeah, yeah. And was it there? Yeah. And it's great to see, like, and it's kind of like, I think, yeah, we will get to Connacht as well. But at the start of the season, I was looking at just the depth of squads. And I was kind of thinking Ulster and Connacht are really going to both struggle. And no matter what talk, you know, it's always positive talk at the start of the season. Ulster, we're kind of saying we're building and this is going great. And you're just like, yeah, all right, let's see how that goes. Like, but yeah, they started really well. Like Richie Murphy, he got a good reputation, like was at Leinster for a while in Inwood, Ireland, then to took over the Irish under 20s and led a couple of teams to Grand Slam wins. So like kind of had this great reputation of getting a lot of young players. So Ulster went and kind of got him. And yeah, that first season was all about just kind of, you know, restoring a bit of pride, making kind of Ravenhill, tough kind of home venue to come and play out again. And there was signs that they were getting there. But then this season, they've probably been playing some of the best attacking rugby. I think like I was looking at some of the URC stats for the season so far, I think Zach Ward has got the most metres gained from any player this season. And Jacob Stockdale has the most defenders beaten. And they're doing lovely, like Mark Sexton, Johnny Sexton's brother is kind of the attack coach there as well. And so lovely attacking kind of phases as well. Like so it's all coming together for them. And then they started kind of having a few, you know, of the homegrown lads were starting to do well. Some of their young props were kind of doing good. And just started piecing together results doing well. the Challenge Cup as well. So yeah, positivity kind of back there. I think what's probably helped as well is Rory Best, the kind of former Ulster and Ireland captain. He's kind of in now as one of a kind of an executive position there as well. Knows a lot of people. They're getting kind of different brands on board, new sponsorship deals for the stadium. So yeah, it's looking a bit more positive up there. Like I'd be in touch with like, you know, Stephen Ferris a good bit and Darren Cave and like former players that kind of played in the 2000s. And yeah, like you'd often kind of get on and ask him how they're doing. And 30 minutes later, they'd still be complaining about Ulster like or bemoaning what was going on. But now you might talk to them and they're a lot more positive. Like so so so people on the ground there again, like or, you know, a few folks on Twitter and yeah, they'll just be a lot more kind of upbeat about how they're going. And the only shame from there at the weekend was just kind of losing that home game to Leinster and kind of actually getting pumped for the first 50, 55 minutes. And that might cause you to have some doubts, but like they're they're well on course if they can kind of maybe get two wins out of those final games, they might get themselves like, you know, handy enough kind of draws for the knockout stages there as well. So, yeah, a lot more positivity up at Ulster and yeah, deservedly mentioned second as well.

On Ulster's Culture and Foreign Players

Andrew Mehrtens: I love actually talking to Ulsterman there. First of all, I enjoy the accent for some reason. And it's a it's quirky. I like the crime novel drama things they have set in Belfast. It has been two guys, Ruan Pienaar was basically a key to the city kind of guy, still a bedrock. And then and then nowadays, I saw that Werner Kok has been really loved by the locals and he and his wife or partner loves them. And so it's interesting because a lot of people inside Ireland kind of should talk that area, you know, but then you see sometimes there's a love affair with people who come who are newcomers. What's you know, what's the story there? How does it work?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, well, there's a lot of kind of even even up in that area like, like Belfast and like it's as was, it's all changed. And there's a lot of development being, you know, made in the last kind of like 10, 15 years. And like you go up to Belfast now, and there's so much kind of building going on and high rises and, you know, supermarkets and the Titanic is a big kind of visitor centre as well. They have an ice hockey team when they go and yeah, a lot more kind of positivity up there and kind of embracing arts and culture kneecap are kind of like, you know, renowned around the world for their kind of like the kind of rap music and mixing Irish with it. So kind of like a vibrant young kind of like young people are kind of starting to have their voices heard. And like Derry Girls is kind of popular kind of show that was picked up on Netflix. And so yeah, loads kind of going for them as well. And and yet some of that positivity could be kind of rubbing off on them as well. And they, yeah, they'd often would kind of think they'd be got forgotten for so many years. And maybe during like, you know, what we call the troubles, like, you know, and there was a kind of the, you know, all the kind of the massive, you know, civil unrest as well. You know, people in the south would just be like, they're all mad feckers up there. Let's leave them to it. Like, you know, but, you know, there's open borders. Now there's back and forth. A lot more Irish people will now go on holiday or go for weekends away up to Northern Ireland as well. Like so. And then you have some lovely parts of the world up there. If you do get up and go see it, like up around the kind of North coast and the causeway and yeah, go visit Derry and stuff like that as well. Some, some lovely places. So yeah, just, just a bit more positivity around the place.

On Ulster's South African Influence and Young Talent

Brenden Nel: Cause for so long it was negative and younger people are starting to have, you know, have their voices heard as well. And yeah, maybe in a way that's kind of filtering across into, into rugby as well, but they, they, they always did seem to be a more laid back province. Even when I used to deal with them kind of doing media, like they always seem to be a bit more like, yeah, you know, let's give it a go. Like, you know, and, and that's it. But at least yeah, during that kind of the golden period they had there, when they got to the, the Heineken Cup final, like when they played Leinster in 2012, like there was the core of that team was very much South African as well. Like in Muller and Terre Blanche and kind of a good few of the boys in a foal, a foal, a Kiwi in there as well, but yeah, very much a South African spy in there as well. So yeah, it's great to kind of see them doing well and kind of, and it's, it's what they kind of need is like younger players. Like, so James McNabney, David McCann, Nathan Doak, kind of coming up and that's been happening recently. So that's great to see. Very impressed by Nathan Doak. It looks like a proper player. Is the Titanic, was that launched there, built there? What's the connection with Belfast?

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah.

Brenden Nel: Which is a strange thing to kind of, you know, champion and be proud of. Like we're, we built the biggest boat in the world that sank on its maiden voyage. Like, you know, I'm sure they kind of probably blamed, you know, outside influences like it, or it was fine when it left. I don't know what happened on the way. What did you do to my boat?

On Connacht and the West of Ireland

Andrew Mehrtens: So, so let's, let's cross then. I guess we'll go all the way to the West. And just personally, I would say if anyone hasn't gone to Ireland and wants to start somewhere, you don't have to start in all the places everyone else does. Go West. It is unbelievable, you know, to go to Galway. It's got an amazing art scene. It's beautiful. It's a bit less busy. Places like Connemara are wonderful to play golf in or hike. There's the Aran Islands, you know, incredible cliffs, the Mohair. But it's just nice to see Connacht do something. It wasn't so nice for me this last weekend. And it was what I tried to understand and portray maybe was this is the best day in Galwegian rugby, counterposed, plopped on top of the worst week of Western Province Stormers rugby, you know, in terms of sadness, personal sadness, you know, just a heavy feeling. But then you couldn't help but look at the boys on the pitch at the final whistle. And what an achievement. So talk me, talk us through Connacht. What's going on in the West?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, yeah. And that was another one like I went to. So for years they had the sports ground. And there's a famous story that Bundy Aki would tell that when he arrived at in Galway and was brought out to the sports ground, he said, like, why am I being brought to a dog track? Like, what's going on here? Like, and that there is like a kind of greyhound track that runs around the outside of the pitch. So he's like, what is going on here? Like and Pat Lam kind of came in and, you know, he during his period, like Eric Elwood, like a club legend was kind of took over as a management for a while. I think they went on like a record run of like maybe Connacht fans probably correct me in the comments, but I think it was something epic, like 16 straight defeats. And they couldn't buy a win at one stage. And then eventually Pat Lam came in and started kind of really going out and embracing all of Connacht, like not just Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, like, and kind of saying, you know, this is, you know, a wider audience we can tap into. And he started playing this lovely kind of running, like we're going to run it from everywhere on the pitch as well. And, and that changed everything. Like, and the biggest shock ever was like in 2016, when they, you know, won the Pro 12 and beat Leinster in over in Murrayfield as well, like, and, and then it was a big kind of positivity at the time. And it was like, let's build on this, we're going to be in the Champions Cup. Pat Lam was bringing out these plans of this new stadium he wanted to build and bring 20,000 people and 25,000 people to every game. And then when he left, there seemed to be a big dip, then some of the players kind of moved on as well. And you're like, they didn't take advantage of that opportunity. And it's taken a long time to kind of claw themselves back. Like Kieran Keane was in for a while, Andy Friend, the Aussie kind of, he came in and injected a bit of positivity around the place. But they still were kind of losing too many games. And then Stuart Lancaster, like this huge appointment came in and like, at the talk, like at the time was that Stuart Lancaster was going to go be the Aussie head coach, like, and then the IRFU kind of got in touch with him and kind of said, well, like, you know, like, what a sales pitch, like, you know, how about, you know, Australia's nice and all, but have you heard of this dog track we have here in Galway? Like, you know, and we have big plans for the future. Like, so Lancaster came in, but I'd say he's made some promises. Like you come here, you kind of rattle some cages and get some big wins. And if Andy Farrell moves on, you'll be in the mix for this Ireland job as well. And, and then, so he didn't have much of a chance to get many transfers done or like trades because he came in late in the day. But next season, they've got Will Connors and Ciarán Frawley coming from, from Leinster as well. There's another few players that'll be coming in and then they've kind of just really invested like in youth. So like you could even see at the weekend, like Sean Naughton, John Devine, Hugh Gavin, Harry West, were all kind of playing against the Stormers, all of these guys in their early twenties. And yeah, like Lancaster is such a kind of intense kind of coach that kind of drills them and drills them and does phase, phase, phase that. Yeah, like they all love him, like he, but he's kind of like this obsessive, you know, like a lot of these best coaches are like these absolute madmen and you kind of just, you know, obsessed over the finer details, but it's infectious in a way. It took him a couple of months to get going into the season, but yeah, now I think they've won seven of their past eight games. I think somebody, I was on a call there with them today and John Muldoon, one of their former captains is a forwards coach now. And they said to him, do you know the last time you won six league games in a row, you won the league that season as well. Like, so, you know, there's a good portent for the future, but yeah, really, really grown for them out there and they're, they're in the mix anyway, like, you know, but there'll be a team that a lot of teams would be, you know, maybe looking to avoid if they do get into those URC playoffs, I'd say, yeah.

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, they have a red hot go on phase play, good clean on the carry clean, definitely well coached, but also tough. And, you know, Stuart Lancaster is a tough boy from the borders area between Scotland and England, and still looks like he could play probably, you know, and they came, they came in with a mission, which was obviously they honoured the memory of Chippy Solomon and they, as someone said, Gronje, who's going to be on our pod next week, said no, no one does death like Irish people. And there's something really magically true about that. And it was sincere and genuine. It wasn't just a token. It was a heartfelt, but they also at the same time came in to rumble on the actual game on the pitch, which is fair enough. That's rugby. There's no whining, there's no crying on the rugby side. It was more just a loss of a special human being that we all love so much, much. It echoes, you know, in some ways of Axel Foley, you know, who you did a brilliant play on. So there's something, I think you've nailed it. No one wants to meet them in the playoffs because you don't know what you're going to get, but you know it's going to be hard and they're going to make you work for it, right?

On Munster's Struggles

Andrew Mehrtens: So speaking of Munster, let's go across to them. And this is the disappointment so far, which is a big name coach, you know, from the Chiefs in New Zealand, says all the right things, you know, has always had really tough teams to play and it just hasn't really come to fruition. Now, that being said, they're still in the picture, but you know, what do you think has not fired this year for Munster?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, it's an interesting one, like to go back even, yeah, we're talking at the start about the rivalries that were growing and, you know, you had Munster's famous kind of run to, you know, title, you know, success in the URC in 2023, where they kind of went and they were the road warriors and they went and beat Glasgow and, you know, they beat Leinster, went to South Africa, won a semi-final and a final and then you were like a lot of young guys in that team were like John Hodnett and Alex Kendellen was around and you were thinking, this is the start of something new, like, you know, because the older guys like O'Mahony, Archer, like Kilcoyne, they weren't getting any younger and, but this would be the new group that would kick on and the shame has been in the three years since hasn't really, like a lot of those guys that won the league haven't even been capped for Ireland, like, or if they have been capped, it's kind of being at a, you know, maybe playing a Fiji or something like that. They haven't, you know, been in the Six Nations as well. So, so that's been a shame that that younger generation hasn't exactly kicked on. You had Graham Rowntree was kind of won the league with them, then kind of, you know, moved on like, you know, not so long ago, but then they recruited well, like Munster, I suppose, like even there, like I was talking to Alex Nankivell a few weeks ago and he was saying like Munster are kind of well-renowned, like in the likes of South Africa and New Zealand as well. Like they're, they're well-known, you know, historic kind of club as well. They've got a great reputation. Like Nankivell was talking about playing with Paul O'Connell and Ronan O'Gara on Rugby 08 on the PlayStation, like, you know, and, and so they have that going from, so they're able to recruit well sometimes, but it's like, are they doing enough with bringing younger players up through the system as well? And I think it was mentioned there recently, like they haven't had like a home produced prop in the last decade. Like, so they're getting their props from outside, like, and that's almost unheard of, like, you know, like imagine if that was in South Africa, like you weren't producing home props, like there'd be government inquiries about it as well. Like, you know, there'd be tribunals, like, you know, people out kind of on street corners, like, you know, so, so they're having a few issues like that as well. Like, so, so that's a, that's a big problem. And then there just seems to be internal kind of rifts within the kind of province and, you know, there's always been that Cork, Limerick kind of pull as well. Like, and, you know, even Conor Murray, like the kind of legendary scrum half, like kind of, you know, even kind of got the captain of the Lions as well. Like he retired there like a season ago, but he, he had a book out and he was just saying like, he hated some of their recruitments. And he said he wasn't the only one, like he said, asked many of the senior players over the years. And they would say that they recruited so poorly over the years as well. Like, so I think that's been a bit of a problem. They probably paid a lot of money in like Snyman is kind of, it's harsh, but that's a good example of like doing like a shed load of cash for somebody. And he just didn't work out that the famous one, a couple of decades before that would have been Christian Cullen, like when he got lured to Munster and didn't do it. But yeah, a lot more kind of recent examples of guys that there were, instead of investing in kind of homegrown talent, they were paying to, you know, for a sticky plaster and it wasn't working as well. So yeah, there's been, I think it's one of these things where again, like going back to football as well, it's like the big team like Manchester United are finding it hard to kind of, there's so much kind of strife and infighting in the background that even when Clayton McMillan comes in and they win four or five games at the start of the season, the negativity just kind of pulls them down as well in the background. So yeah, real shame. But I was only listening to, just to throw in one final point about Munster. It's like, like Brendan Fanning, like the kind of the well-known kind of Irish rugby writer, kind of was talking about it on the radio here in Ireland yesterday. And he was saying that like rugby was the number one sport in Limerick for, you know, good few years, especially when they were winning Heineken Cups. But then hurling then, there's a huge investment in hurling. And then like, I think Limerick or like the local, like Limerick won five All-Irelands in a row. Hurling championships. Like, so, and he was saying, he was looking at that Limerick team saying, him, him and him would all be great for Munster, like, but now they're hurlers. Like, so, so a little, a little bit of everything. And it's all kind of, you know, we talk about in rugby, 1% and 2% makes a difference. Like, and it's all adding up for, for negative results for Munster, unfortunately.

On Fine Margins and Playoff Predictions

Andrew Mehrtens: I love that about rugby. We always, we isolate things and we say, you know, it's one or 2%, it's fine margins. And then you try to analyse a loss or a win, you say, it's just that little thing. And people go, no, it couldn't be that. It has to be something bigger. It really is that fine. So, sort of like, I think MVA, you've done sort of a calculation of who you think might be in the final four. Mine was horribly wrong. I had estimated that Connacht would get nothing else and Ulster would get nothing else. And so I have all these new enemies over there. I love you all, my frenemies. So how do you see it all shaping out? Who's, what did you finally come out with, with your objective standards?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, highly empirical and completely objective. I've got, you know, I've got Munster at eight and Connacht at six, Connacht at six, just a matter of interest. And it, and it, semi quarterfinals play like this, Glasgow Munster, Leinster, Lions, Bulls, Connacht, and then Stormers, Ulster, obviously mentioned first, and then semis, Glasgow, Stormers, and Leinster, Bulls. And then I went all in South Africa and kept on, you know, all the way. And I said, Bulls versus Stormers at Loftus final. I mean, we're going to win both those away games in the end, no worries. We're going to complete, yeah, in South Africa.

Andrew Mehrtens: But you do have all four Irish provinces then in, is what you're saying?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Andrew Mehrtens: Okay. Is that what you, how you see it, Pat?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, like, they were having a good season, but like, maybe I was looking at someone like Cardiff might be a little bit, kind of susceptible to, you know, that they might slip out of it. Like, it'll be a very strange season where I think 48 points would have got you qualified in the past, but now 48 might, like 50, you might need 50 or something to kind of get there. So.

Andrew Mehrtens: Well, I was born after I was 53. Sorry, my, my, my, my guess is, yeah.

Brenden Nel: Yeah. So, yeah, maybe Cardiff might go out as well. And then, but then Connacht don't have easy fixtures. I think they've got, yeah, they've got Lions. Edinburgh. Yeah. Edinburgh away. And then hopefully they'll be hoping Edinburgh on the beach already. Like, and although you wouldn't want to go to any Scottish beaches, like, but right now playing the Lions is no bargain. It's a tough one. Yeah. Yeah.

On the Lions' Success Story

Brenden Nel: That's even like the, again, for some, you know, the Lions is kind of huge, like success story this season as well, haven't they? Like they've kind of, they've, they've really kind of pulled results together. And sometimes the team that, even though you can see them, they're high up on the table, I'd still sometimes have to do a double take on they win again, or did they do like, I keep waiting for that kind of balloon to burst, but, but yeah, they're having a great season, but yeah. Imagine the reward at the end of it. They'd hate if they got Leinster at the end of all that in the, in the quarterfinal, like.

Andy Capostagno: You know what, what my biggest fear is? Bulls and Stormers dominate the URC and then the bloody Lions come from behind and win the thing. That would be the worst day of my life, I tell you.

Comparing URC Teams to Irish Provinces

Brenden Nel: It's interesting. Also, you can do these comparisons, you know, like for a lot of people. So I was gonna say like, Stormers are like Leinster getting all the privilege and and sort of the press, you know, and then, you know, Heartland would be Bulls and Munster. And, but you could argue that Munster and Sharks have comparisons. And then Ulster compared to the Sharks a lot of times with Sharks players as well. But then you get to the Connacht Lions thing, and we had Ringo, Rian Lowe, I don't know if you follow him, but he was like, yeah, we kind of like, except we don't play in bad weather. We don't have, we cannot play on a dog track. But there's something about, about both teams that is somewhat similar, and that no one really believes. You know, I found it hard to believe in the Connacht story. And then here I am, you know, you know, I'm the victim of it. For a long time, we've been saying, the Lions really, are they really there? And then lo and behold, then the Harry index this week, they made number 10.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, highly controversial for MVA, who thinks that the Bulls are way better. Yeah, I mean, I just grabbed my what you call it my fan and I waved away because I couldn't believe what my eyes were telling me the Bulls know where the Lions are 10. Oh, come on.

Brenden Nel: It's the beauty of a team. You know, there's something about the Lions is they play that they play exact, you know, exactly that they all know how they want to play. They treat kick returns like set pieces. They're all lined up and ready to run in their trams and fling the ball around and they have a proper goal kicker who makes his goals. I mean, it just doesn't seem like a bit like you don't want to run into the Lions either.

Pat: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's like I say for a lot of, you know, even Irish supporters that we've seen Connacht beating Stormers at the weekend, they'll think, oh, yeah, now they'll just follow it up by beating Lions and as well. But this could even be the tougher game for them this weekend.

Brenden Nel: Yeah. Yeah. And it was ultra fit. You know, if you have an S&C based coach, which is Cash van Rooyen, you know, one thing is for sure, they're not going to be the unfit team. You know, they're not going to be the heralded Craven Week superstars, but they are definitely on a high felt going to give you a ragged time of it. So anyway, I think there's there's arguments to be made. And the beautiful thing is we're about to see what happens.

On Six Nations Aftermath

Brenden Nel: Just talk to me a little bit about some of the aftermath of the Six Nations. You know, what's what's what's everyone feel about there? Who made the biggest gains in the Irish firmament besides Stuart McCloskey that we've all heard about to the nth degree?

Pat: Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah. McCloskey is kind of the main man there. And now again, no spring chicken like so many Irish players, but he's kind of timed his run nicely like and that's what you could actually say. He's kind of he's he hasn't had too many games now. Like so now he's kind of like he's he's almost like he's a young version of a 33 year old as well. So but yeah, like Rob Baloucoune, like it was just great to like people have said it for a while. But it's great to see pace out on the wing again, like and a couple of the tries that he scored, like if they had went to, you know, like no nothing against them, but like, like a Mack Hansen or a kind of Calvin Nash, or Jimmy O'Brien, they might not be in scores like he just had that pace to just burn people on the outside as well. And so he did fantastically well. And then yeah, like the really interesting to see like another one, like, they're all kind of Ulster guys as well. But Tom O'Toole, who has been highly spoken of for so many years, kind of born, you know, I think the family kind of were in Australia for a few years headed over to Ireland. And, and he was like Willie Anderson, like the kind of Irish legend kind of was coached at the Ulster Academy for so many years, like he would have said it to me five or six years ago, keep an eye out for this guy, he's gonna be great. He'll be a test player, like he'll be a regular. So you were waiting and waiting, but he always seemed to have what you call like brain fades, like he do something silly in a game or like a silly penalty or he'd switch off at like, you know, a ruck or something. And, and, you know, didn't seem to kind of have that, you know, elite mentality, but all of a sudden he got thrown in and as a loose head, then, you know, rather than a tight head and, and kind of held his own like so. So that's kind of, you know, really kind of opened things up as well. So those those Ulster guys all did really well for themselves. And yeah, as well. And then, yeah, someone like it's been interesting to kind of see just Caelan Doris getting shifted around, they're trying a little bit more at open side to kind of just, I suppose, to give themselves another option apart from van der Flier there as well. And, and then the other one, we didn't see enough of them, or we kind of would have liked to seen a bit more of someone like Edwina Edogbo. But they kind of are, they're, they did well, actually, like Farrell did really well there, like in retrospect, they were kind of given two or three guys a chance in nearly every game, bringing them in for luck. And by the end of it, they'd been kind of, I think they said, 12 players that had never played in the Six Nations before, all of a sudden had experience like so. And the shame was that France, you know, game at the start of it all. But I did see, I think Mack Hansen was on, like, you know, one of the Aussie podcasts. And he was saying, yeah, people were asking, like saying Andy Farrell should go. And I was saying, I don't think anyone from like, from like, apart from like, maybe a mad person on social media, like, I don't think any of the Irish media were saying Andy Farrell should go. You know, like, no, I don't, I couldn't find the clip, I couldn't find the article, like, you know, but yeah, there was a bit of like, criticism saying, Um, I dunno, like, has he been around for too long or like, let him go on until the world cup and then get a fresh voice in or something like that. But now having, it looks like he's been able to regenerate the side a little bit, and now there's a bit more positivity and does even talk about, you know, just give him a contract, you know, get, get him signed up for the next world cup, almost like, you know, we'll be here in another 12 years, kind of, uh, looking droopier, we'll be talking about Rassie and, and Andy Farrell heading for the, I'm trying to do my maths here, like the 2037 world cup or something like that. And, uh, can Ireland get past the quarterfinal stages and, and can the Springboks win seven world cups in a row?

On Andy Farrell's Future

Brenden Nel: Well, the reports of his demise were greatly exaggerated and premature. Uh, Bernard Jackman, our friend and your friend talked about, there's only a couple of, uh, super coaches and Andy Farrell is one of them. It is extraordinary though, that he's been there that long. I mean, like, to be honest, critics are not crazy to bring up the idea of every coach reaches a sell by date, you know, a stale date, it happens. It's just the way it is. Uh, but not yet.

On Rugby's Popularity in Ireland

Brenden Nel: My curiosity also, cause I hear arguments, I see arguments going on and one of the things that I don't know the truth and you are the ultimate honest man, where does rugby rank in Ireland in popularity? Is it number four, as I hear all the time? Or is it number one? Is it number two? Where does it sit?

Pat: Yeah. Like I suppose, like if you looked at it kind of, um, across the calendar year, you might say that it's probably number two, like, you know, like, and, and then you'd have Gaelic football and hurling fans would go ballistic by that, but they just have these kinds of moments around two months of every year when the, the all Ireland championship is that it's kind of peak that that just dominates. Like, you know, that would, that used to dominate every summer and it would take over everything. And then you'd get, you'd get swept up in it again. Like you see a good hurling game, you know, two sides at their peak. You're like, yeah, this is an amazing sport. And I'm so proud that this is from, you know, my country as well. But like when the championship is over, you know, it kind of rugby does kind of start dominating headlines again. Like, so, uh, yeah, there's an argument to say that, um, that at times in the year, it's the second one, uh, but yeah, football is number one. And, and even there, like, and, and this is considering how terrible, um, you know, the national team where in Ireland for, for a long time, like I think the last major championship we got to was 2016. And, uh, so, and then after that, like we're getting beaten by the likes of Armenia and Luxembourg, you know, and, um, but what is it just players on Liverpool and, you know, prim.

Brenden Nel: Well, yeah, there used to be like, there used to be, but then, um, but then what's happened, I suppose maybe a part of it would be Brexit as well. Like you can't bring in an Irish player until they're 18, until they're an adult. So then, and then, so like transfer laws made it easier. There's more players coming in from like Spain, like Nigeria, uh, coming in from Mexico, like, and all of a sudden the Irish, it used to be Ireland and England and Wales and Scotland would be all in the main division. And so Irish guys are now kind of in the championship and a bit below. So like, they're not playing at that elite level. Like, um, like I think the only thing we've seen good at producing at elite level would be goalkeepers, you know, like goalies, goalies at all, all, all we could do. Like, and, um, and then the odd kind of player every now and then would play for like an Everton or like a Brentford or something like that. So, uh, but then recently, uh, Ireland went on a good run. We beat Portugal. Um, yeah, we, uh, we beat Hungary. We got to a world cup playoff and we played Czechia, uh, Czech Republic. And, um, and all of a sudden you could see what happens when the football team are good, it just sweeps up the whole nation and there's flags hung out everywhere. And you kind of get rement reminded of like the golden era when, um, when, you know, probably the most beloved English man in Irish history, Jack Charlton came in and was our manager and you can just see, like, it just, it's the conversation everywhere. Like, and it's probably what, maybe what I'd imagine what the conversation would be like in South Africa when there's a big, you know, when the world cup is going on or something, that's what it was like here. So I'd say football is still number one, but yeah, rugby definitely has long stretches of the year where it would be kind of number two. And then in the summer, everything takes a backseat to Gaelic games then. And you're reminded how good these amateurs are at kicking the crap out of each other and getting amazing scores.

On GAA Athletes

Brenden Nel: Yeah. That's brilliant. I do think there's a lot of athletes in GAA that you look at and you think they would fit in rugby and I suppose they cross over. Right. I mean, yeah.

Pat: Yeah. There's a guy, what is it? Um, yeah, even just thinking like a guy called Brian Fenton, like a midfielder from Dublin, like just, you know, six, four, six, five, like just so athletic could run all day. Um, the player, like even when you have guys that were like players of their generation, there's a guy who plays for Kerry called David Clifford. Um, who's unbelievable there as well. Like he's, um, he's kind of, he'll probably go down as one of the greatest players of all time and I can score from anywhere, could score off the left foot and the right foot kind of mixes in a bit of basketball style and, you know, into his play as well. So, uh, and GAA, I suppose it's become, there's a lot of line breaks, line breaks are kind of how you break through the defensive walls and stuff. So there's some rugby kind of crossovers as well. And, um, yeah, so very good. And then, uh, yeah, I was reading up your, your, your clip not so long ago, you were talking about Joe Canning then as well, kind of, uh, he'd have to kind of the brain to kind of maybe be an out half or something out there as well or fly half.

On Ireland's Growing Fascination

Brenden Nel: Yeah. Yeah. And that's brilliant. Uh, listen, we are fascinated by Ireland now in a rugby context, but I think what happens also is it makes you more fascinated in the country itself. Um, we would just talk to Jamie Lyle from Scotland earlier today. And he was, I mean, he literally is in love with the country because he's so interested in South African rugby and that was, that was what got him there. So I think it's similar, uh, I won't speak for MVA, but I think it's similar for us is your country got even more fascinating. It was already great, but now it's more fascinating.

Andy Capostagno: You may speak on my behalf, Harry. I agree with you.

Pat: Yeah. Like one of these years we'll, uh, to continue success at a show, you can head off to, uh, to Ireland for a kind of a live show when you're on, when you're on your European tour.

Brenden Nel: Yes. At the moment we can't take you to the airport with the money we make you from YouTube, man. Can't take an Uber that we have to walk. I like the dream. Let's do it.

Pat: Yeah. Thanks, Pat. That's awesome, man. Just love having you back in there. We're going to have you back again if you don't mind.

Pat: Oh yeah. It'd be a pleasure. Yeah. I'd love to.

Brenden Nel: Awesome, man. Thank you. Talk to you soon. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod. Only on Megaphone Rugby.