Reformatted from the episode audio. Speaker names where identifiable; topic headers added at natural transitions.
On Dave Rennie's Philosophy: Brutality Over Instagram Plays
Martin Devlin: I asked this question to him in the closed door thing, is that what you're going to bring back? And he just nodded, looked at me and he said, I call it brutality. And this was his quote. I'm not interested in flashy Instagram plays. I'm not interested in that. You know, a guy that does something on the field in a Super Rugby game, before you know it, it's on Instagram and everyone's going, put him in the All Blacks because he did this. He said, I'm not interested in that. I had him selected to start against the Stormers in the first URC game. Those were his words. So you've got a CEO that's saying, because of the rules, this guy can't play. You've got a coach that hasn't even started coaching, yet that's already selected him for the first game on that tour. I called it a conflict. I've been criticized for calling that a conflict. I don't see how it is anything other than the conflict of two views. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby.
MW Welman: Welcome back to the Lekker Rugby Pod. And what a pleasure. We've got Martin Devlin back. Martin, how's it? Early morning in New Zealand, late at night in South Africa and somewhere in the middle of Wairari. Welcome back, man.
Martin Devlin: Yeah, thank you so much. Been very much looking forward to this. Love coming on with you guys. And obviously, well, we're three months away from the rivalry tour. So yeah, temperature rising here in New Zealand, heat building, a lot of conversation about it. I mean, it's obviously the thing we're all working towards. So hello to you and hello to Harry.
MW Welman: Marty, we understand that you've been having some chats with the incoming All Blacks coach, Dave Rennie, and we're eager to hear about it. I know that there's a lot of things that were just bothering you about a year ago. And I'm interested now to hear if it's coming the right way, if you have more confidence now after speaking with Dave.
On the Closed Door Meeting at NZR HQ
Martin Devlin: Yeah, so on Tuesday, New Zealand time, the media rat pack, we were invited to NZR HQ in Auckland for a sit down with both the coach and Mike Blair, the attack coach, and met him for the first time. Steve Lancaster was in that room as well with the new CEO of New Zealand Rugby. And so it was a round table. We got about 45 minutes where we're all allowed to chat, ask questions, and that's kind of the closed door bit. And then we had an official stand up press conference after that. So look, there's no real trade secrets spoken. There was a couple of things said about a couple of individual players, which I won't repeat just to respect the coach's privacy, because when he did say them, look, they would be headlines if we said them. So rather than bust that, all of us kind of promised that we'd keep that indoors. But I'll tell you what, it was just really good. The first thing is, is that the privilege of sitting down, as I'm sure you guys always get a kick out of this as well, when you're in the company of the All Black coach, and he's right there, Harry. He's right where you are. He's right where you are, M. Doven. And I never get used to the fact, I'm 62, but I never get used to the fact that here am I in this meeting with this guy, and I'm getting to ask him questions, and I'm standing this close to him. He's from Upper Hutt where I grew up. And his best friend is a guy that I went to school with. So we have a little bit in common, and have known each other, obviously, connected through. We're not friends, obviously, but we're connected through the fact that we've been in and around each other for 20-something years. So yeah, it was just, and it's very New Zealand. This is very New Zealand where everyone knows somebody else through someone else. It's kind of like the jokers that we've all been to the same party in Paekakarahiki. You meet in London. You've never met this person. Oh, you were at that party. I was at that party. And kind of, so it has that feel to it. Look, and it was very friendly. It wasn't, in no way, kind of confrontational because there's been nothing up until this point, you know, to kind of warrant anything like that. Like, you know, we're all at the moment just eager to find out what his plans are, what his thought processes are. He's still gathering his team around him. Do remember also that Dave Rennie is still in Japan at this stage. So he'd come back for this, and he's gone back to Japan where his club is still in contention for the Japanese league. So he doesn't actually arrive back in New Zealand until the end of that. And the final thing I'll say on this bit is that there's only 10 days between when they all get together and that first test of the Nations Championship against France. So it's a pretty small window for him and all his crew.
On Graham Henry as Selector
Harry Jones: Did you get anything from Dave about why Graham Henry has been added as a selector? And what does that even mean? What's the process of selection look like from that standpoint?
Martin Devlin: It's not the first time this has happened. Ian Foster had Grant Fox in the background and Steve Hansen had Grant Fox in the background. These are selectors that won't do a lot of public talking, if any public talking at all. Graham Henry's done a couple of little chats after that, after it was announced. I think it's a wise move. It's to provide an outside voice and outside lens, but also somebody with vast experience. You're talking about a guy that coached the All Blacks for what, from 2004 to 2011, won a World Cup, had his own ups and downs, of course. But he just watches so much rugby, Graham Henry, and he's got eyes on the whole time. Dave Rennie actually said when he asked him about it, he said the first thing that Ted said was, look, I've got a list of 60 players. You know, this guy's 79 years old and he's watching every single game. He's got a list of 60 players. So I think what it is, and it's easy now to look back and criticize Scott Robertson and I don't want to do that, because we really do feel in New Zealand that we've moved on. But part of, I think, one of the mistakes he made was having no one from the past in his group. He kind of transported the Crusaders guys, put them in the All Blacks. And I always feel, I don't know what you guys think about this, but I always feel that connecting to the past and especially people who've done it and won it and had that experience is invaluable. And I just think he's looking at a pair of eyes that are looking in from outside that won't be around him the whole time. But when you're talking about selecting players, if you've got a group of five or six or key people around you, they're all looking at the same. Sometimes it's really good to get a voice from outside that has a lot of experience and says, actually, I'll tell you what, I'm looking at that guy and I'm seeing something different.
MW Welman: But structurally, it's weird to me. Is it like a veto? I mean, obviously the coach would come up more with the plan for the next two or three weeks, the opponents, and then maybe Ted's the one looking over the shoulder and saying, no, or no, the bench configuration. Surely it's not Ted sitting down and saying, here's my 60 players.
Martin Devlin: No, it's not. And I do remember Steve Hansen saying this to me that, you know, some nights these discussions went into the night. Other times they all agreed. It's just three voices. And I presume there's some horse trading that goes on with this. I've always thought, is it a two to one vote or does the coach, who's the coach, get the ultimate veto vote and say, I will, whatever you two guys are saying, it's my decision in the end. That's how I would figure this would go. I don't know how Rassie does it, but if it's me in this position, I want to hear those voices. But ultimately, I'm the guy that's actually in the firing line and I'm the guy that's going to make that call. And that's how I feel Dave will probably do it.
On Player Positions in Flux
MW Welman: Which player groups do you think are the most in flux there? On the outside, I'm looking at midfield and saying I don't agree with the All Black selections of the midfield for a while. And the other thing is the use of the bench, not just the configuration of the bench, but the timing thereof and not looking at more innovative strategies and perhaps maybe the third lock and blindsider. Those are my areas where I would think Razor maybe was a bit too conservative and maybe too predictable.
Martin Devlin: OK, just remind me before we finish this bit of the conversation about what Mike Blair said about the attack coach and how he thinks that we're going to play or what their idea is. But you're bang on. Look, let's start at the front with the big boys. I think that we're OK for props at the moment. But Dave Rennie did say that we're one or two injuries away in several bits of the squad. 34 players to be named for the Nations Championship, 44 to be taken to South Africa for the rivalry tour. He said that we're one or two injuries away from being really light in certain positions. OK, front row. At the moment, we haven't seen Tyrell Lomax all season. He's been injured right with his thumb. Tamati Williams is out till at least the end of Super Rugby. Probably won't get to see him for the first couple of tests of the Nations Championship. But I think our propping stocks are pretty good. And you add those two guys to it and they're really good. Hookers, we've certainly got two and perhaps three with George Bell, but some are Sony and also Cody Taylor. And so, again, a lot of experience there. So I think we're OK there. As far as the locks go, we haven't seen anything of Scott Barrett yet. He is still on sabbatical. Apparently, he's got some kind of back injury, meant to be back at the end of this month. The timing was supposedly for the end of Super Rugby playoffs in that first test. We don't know the timing of that. But there's him there and that raises questions about the captaincy as well. But I think lock-wise, we're OK as well. We've got a couple that have come through in Super Rugby. Josh Lord is one name.
On the Loose Forward Conundrum
Martin Devlin: Loose forwards, Harry. This is where it does get really interesting because there's probably a list of seven, eight, nine names, but I defy any All Black fan, any pretend selector like myself to name the three that would start against France, let alone the three that would start against your lot. Apart from Adi Sabir, if he's fit and he's available. Obviously, Adi is one of those. We've got a lot of guys that it feels like they're the same player. And you get this a lot in football M-Dub as well, where, you know, I watch my Man United team play. We've got a midfield and there's like five guys they can select from, but they all play the same position. And I think when you look at the All Blacks, loose forwards, we don't have a lot of differentiation, which you guys have. You guys can pick a monster at number six. You can pick a different kind of guy at eight. You can pick guys off the bench that can come in and readjust those roles. We've got Adi Sabir in his role. And then I'm not sure any of us really know how that combination works. Whether we go for height, like what Meks is saying, and he wants four line-out options or four aerial options, aerial combat options in that forward pack, or whether we go more back to the future for the All Blacks and be more aggressive, more bitey, more niggly, more abrasive around the breakdown and go for guys that are quicker and faster there.
On Cam Roigard at Halfback
Martin Devlin: Bear with me on this. Then we go to halfback. We've got Cam Roigard. And Roigard. And Roigard. He's miles above everyone else, right, Marty? I mean, just he's a colossus. He's so far ahead of everyone else. And he's a guy that a lot of us are thinking, if he's not added to the leadership group, he's a potential captain in the future. Not because he has all the experience, just because that's who he is. He's just one of those guys I think everyone in the dressing room looks at and goes, wow, I'm playing with you and I know you can win us games. This is not to suck up to you, Marty, at all. This is not to butter you up, but I would pick Roigard over Dupont every day of the week. Look, I think they're different players. And again, I'm interested in MWY. You've got to think on that. But I think they're different players. But Cam Roigard offers so much to the All Blacks. And part of the thing that Mike Blair was talking about, none of these are trade secrets, people, is we're going to have to go back to playing the way that All Black rugby attacks the Springboks, which is at pace, which is really moving that ball quickly, which is looking for green grass. And with Scott Robertson, it just got so confused and muddled. Remember, the word was clunky all the time. We just couldn't seem to get anything going. And I'm wondering whether that's how our loose forwards will be, that they will be really attacking the breakdown like a pack and really fast. And if you remember back to 2012 and 2013, when Dave Rennie was coaching the Chiefs, there's a lot of dissatisfaction amongst a lot of sides because of the way that they niggled around the breakdown. They were abrasive, man. They got in your face. They were pushing guys off the side. They were really riding that line. I asked this question to him in the closed door thing. Is that what you're going to bring back? And he just nodded, looked at me, and he said, I call it brutality. So, you know, translate that however you want. After Roigard and Hotham, we've got a problem at nine. No question about that. We really do. If we lost Roigard, we're in big trouble. Aaron Smith, I know you're in Japan and retired. Is there a possibility?
On the 9-10 Axis and Midfield Issues
Martin Devlin: You know, we go to number 10. And again, you guys, do you look at a 9-10 axis and those two players playing together, or do you pick two separate guys who are the best guys? So the Richie Mawanga thing is a really interesting thing. I'll get onto that later. The midfield, you're right. We've got a 12, who we all think is a great 12, a world-class 12 in Jordie Barrett. But the combination for 12 and 13 still isn't there. And it's only been 11 years since Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith had that combination locked down. And we haven't had a regular fix since then. I think our back three, I think our back three in terms of the two wingers and the fullback, I think we can pick three really good players. Will Jordan is obviously locked in at fullback.
On the Bench Configuration
Martin Devlin: But the fascinating thing, Harry, is what you brought up about the bench. Scott Robertson, just, I think, failed completely in how that bench was used, the configuration of, and the impact of those players. And so again, now we come back to, do we, the 5-3 or 6-2 split, you know, that's going to be argued about forever. But do we have players that can fulfil one or two more roles? And this is one thing that Rassie introduced, which, you know, players been able to, if necessary, come off that fullback and fill a role in the centre position or, you know, a guy that can actually genuinely play two or three positions. And so when you look at all of that big picture, yeah, there are gaps and there are holes. And this is the coach's biggest challenge before we get to South Africa is to make sure that there's some solidity and consistency in those.
On Brodie Retallick's Availability
Brenden Nel: If you're not using Brodie Retallick, can we borrow him? Because, I mean, the Boks have no locks left.
Andrew Mehrtens: Look, he mentioned him, and specifically because it's a question that keeps coming up. He says Brodie Retallick is the best player in Japan at the moment. He's the top try scorer. He said he's absolutely refreshed. But look, Brodie Retallick retired in 2023. He retired. You know, he played 100 and something tests for the All Blacks. He played 100 games for the Chiefs. He has ruled himself out of international rugby this year. And this is why, because he doesn't want to spend 150 days in hotels. And Dave Rennie made the joke twice that the furthest he travels these days is the train to Tokyo. He just doesn't like traffic. He doesn't like staying away from his family. A lot of us think, oh, you know, that's real novelty, living like that. But, you know, when you've got young kids and you've been doing it for 12 years, it's like the cricketers do. They spend six months on the road. It's really, you know, it's hard on every other aspect of their life. That's not ruling Brodie Retallick out for next year. But I kind of think, really, look, I think we've got young, good locks. Brodie Retallick was an absolute colossus for us. But I think we kind of have, maybe have moved on from that. Having said that, I'm in favour of Richie Mo'unga being added to the squad. So there's a contradiction straight away.
On Lester Faingaanuku and X-Factor Players
Andrew Mehrtens: I was watching your show recently. Excellent. Everyone should get on it and see the guests you have. But I don't even know the names of these two guys, but you were having a debate about Lester Faingaanuku. And I was so struck with one of the guests getting it, like he got it, that it wasn't just about, why would you put a backline player in a flank? Why would he be even the 20th best flank in New Zealand was one guy. And the guy who got it was like, that's not the point. The point is that 20 minutes to go, 25 minutes to go, 15 minutes to go, you never know what you're looking at on that particular night. And you need to be able to throw curveballs and strange things. You need to have X factor players coming from all over the place. And why wouldn't you want to have that in your locker? And I thought that was great.
Brenden Nel: To be, just to make Rassie wonder instead of Rassie making you guys wonder. Great point.
Andrew Mehrtens: And the discussion was called the round table and it's three rabid dog fans and we're all going for it. And Mark Watson is just, Watto will argue about everything. JD or Jamie was sitting in for JD this week. He's more, a little bit more tempered on that. I'm sitting there in the middle and it's normally me and Watto's position, but I'm trying to lasso both these guys. And look, Lester's a really interesting one, isn't he? Because in 2023, if you remember, he replaced Sevu Reece on the wing, for the quarterfinal against Ireland. And he played really, really well. Then he goes away to France. We don't see him. While he's in France for too long, we hear that he's playing a lot of games at seven or finishing games at seven. And that adds to the conversation. Go, really? Wow. I've never seen that before. Okay. Not in New Zealand rugby. Comes back to the Crusaders. And a lot of us are thinking he's our answer at centre. We saw him and Quentin Tupaea last year play on the UK tour where they played at 12 and 13 together. And a lot of us thought maybe that's the future there. But no, he's started the wing for the Crusaders. And now he's in at seven. I think you're right. I don't know how many players can genuinely fit that bill, though, Harry. Look, and also when a guy's playing number seven in Super Rugby at the moment, you're going to get some games where he's really going to dominate. Could he be that effective at international level? Or are we better off looking at guys like Braydon Ennor and Tupaea? And if you watch them play, they play the position of 12. But their work over the ball and creating turnovers and being first there, they're almost like the first number seven at the breakdown a lot of the time. Do we look at that as a way of a point of difference? So there's a couple of questions and combinations there. But you are right. And Dave Rennie was big on this. It's time that we started doing things that other people are raising their eyebrows at again and going, hang on a second, the All Blacks are innovative again. The All Blacks are trying things again. So yeah, it's a chess match going on at the moment, isn't it? We start putting our black pawn up there and let's see where Rassie comes from there. And let's see where he moves his rook and let's see whether the horse goes over this side. Yeah, I'm loving every second of it.
On Cards and Adaptability
Brenden Nel: And the other thing is, I mean, cards are such a constant. So setting aside whether something should or should not be cards, setting aside the whole red 20 to red, it doesn't matter. The number of times in a game that a card will occur is increasingly so high that it's literally what you're planning around. And so the presence of a Lester Faingaanuku, Andre Esterhuizen, is that you have adaptability. Akira Ioane, you know, the tweener, the player that could fit in anywhere you want. This seems to be one of the problems when I looked back at All Blacks is they would start really well, but not finish really well because sure as shit, there would be a card. It just, it's going to be. It happens or someone has an injury. And so it's interesting to me, Dave Rennie has always been a guy who his teams are always really prepared for war, you know? And I'm interested in the culture there. Like instead of making excuses, like I thought Razor did at the end, are you seeing a man who's coming in, you know, built for war? Is this what we're going to look at in the rivalry?
On Rennie's Focus on Brutality and Physicality
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, 100%. That's exactly what it is. He's made no secret about that at all. That, as I said, he brings out the word brutality. He wants his players to be really physical. One of the things he said to us is that he said, you know, he said, you guys, meaning us and the media, us fans as well. He said, you know, and this was his quote, I'm not interested in flashy Instagram plays. I'm not interested in that. You know, a guy that does something on the field in a Super Rugby game, before you know it, it's on Instagram and everyone's going to put him in the All Blacks because he did this. He said, I'm not interested in that. He said, I'm interested in, does he do a tackle? How fast does he back up? Where is he placed in that back line? Is he making another tackle or is he lying there on the ground? He wants guys, he calls him up and downs. He wants guys that are totally physically committed before everything else. And it's interesting you say that, yeah, we haven't closed games out very well. Look, I think two years ago we had this real problem. We couldn't score any points at the end of a game. And we came to South Africa and we just, I think the last 20 minutes, we couldn't score. Something like six test matches in a row we couldn't score. Last year we had this problem between 40 minutes and 60 minutes. We couldn't score. And I think that that bench thing is absolutely huge. And I don't think Scott Robertson got it right. I'm not sure Ian Foster got it right. But having said that, I think it's changed so much over the last couple of years. This is the big evolving thing of Test Rugby, isn't it? It's not about the 15. It's 23 players. And those other eight players are coming onto the field. And you've got to figure out, it's almost like an NFL side now, where they fit. How, what is attack? What is defence? In terms of the cards, Harry, we spent a time a couple of years ago where we played like seven or eight test matches in a row. And it was such a frustration. You know, I was always banging on about it. We never play with 15 men. We're always playing with 14 men. We're always playing with 13 men. And the way that the game is now, and especially with the head contact and things, yeah, you are going to have 14 men on the field at some stage. It's, you have to prepare for that. So I think, obviously with the eight, you've got to have three front rowers. That's just locked in, right? That just has to happen. You've got to have cover for nine and 10 because they're specialist positions. Outside of that, you're probably playing with three players. Your line out forwards have perhaps got to play loose forward as well. And I'm looking at maybe a Scott Barrett who might not be first choice selection, but that guy can play six as well as play lock. And I think he could be an invaluable player in that position that you're talking about.
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On Leadership Groups
Brenden Nel: The other thing is that your leadership group replaces the idea of captaincy, the skipper. Now it's this idea of a leadership group. Someone's leading the line out. Someone's the defensive captain. Someone's the guy who talks to the ref captain. But it's all different. Talk to me about that. What's your sense of Rennie? Does he keep the same? Is there continuity? Or do you believe Dave Rennie wants to have his own leadership group?
Andrew Mehrtens: Again, this came up and we asked questions about this because we still don't have an All Black captain at the moment. And he refused to answer that question, but he talked about the leadership group. And he said a couple of weeks ago, the leaders got together. I had Gilbert Enoka on the podcast this week, and Gilbert was kind of like the head doctor guru and the motivation specialist for 20 years with the All Blacks. He came in in 2004, created that no dickheads policy and went all the way through to Ian Foster's last game in 2023. Scott Robertson didn't want him. He's now back and he's part of that leadership team. But in terms of the leadership group, Dave Rennie said they expect some changes. There will be some senior players who miss out who still are All Blacks. There'll be some senior players who miss out who won't be All Blacks. There might be a couple of names in there that people think, because they never really tell us who these guys are. They don't actually give us a list of the leadership group. We assume a lot. But he said, expect a couple of players in there that maybe a lot of people on the surface wouldn't consider. That's why I'm thinking Cam Roigard, because he's just such an integral player and a lot of decisions on the field. One of the things that we want to get back to, for me, in All Black rugby is attacking the blind side for a start. The All Blacks, MWO, you've watched a lot of rugby over the years. We always were a real blindside team. That initial decision-making, especially with that new rule, with the penalty, where you can tap and go within a metre or whatever, or two metres of where the ref calls it and you don't have to wait and the defence that is directly in front of you, well if they touch you, that's another penalty and perhaps a card. Now Cam Roigard's an expert at exploiting that space and we've seen him really go for that in Super Rugby. So I think that playing at pace and using that side of it is going to be really important for us. And so leadership-wise, that guy's got his hands on the ball so much, how can you not include him as a key decision-maker because on the field, at the time, in the heat, he's going to have to call those things, isn't he? And he's not going to have to wait and go, Ardie or whoever it is, Scott Barrett, can I do this? He's just going to go, Gap, go, chase me.
Brenden Nel: It's also interesting because you're working on Super Rugby form, Cam Roigard is leading the far and away, the dominant team this year, I mean Chiefs are right behind them but still it's been Hurricanes as far as points differential and the shape of the game. They are the boss. How do you read that? Because it seems like Super Rugby isn't necessarily giving whoever the All Black coach is a great read on who would play good test rugby. It's great derbies, but the Aussie competition, whether it's the Reds or Brumbies, it's not really shaping as tough competition as it should be.
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, and it's a continuous debate with us about whether it's the most adequate preparation. Dave Rennie seems very confident that it is. It's all we've got. We can't invent something and say, okay, right, outside of that, how do we prepare our players? A lot of these guys, you've got to remember, established All Blacks anyway. Some of the players that are playing the best in Super Rugby at the moment are some of our best All Blacks, which is kind of what you'd expect and what you want, especially with a new coach, the motivation of impressing that guy. These guys know how to prepare themselves for test rugby. A guy that's played 50 or 60 tests, I think he could play club rugby and get himself up mentally ready. If not physically ready, he might have to go and do some, you know, two weeks of intensive training or whatever, but he kind of knows what it takes to run out onto that field. We played two games against you guys last year and we all know the results of those games. And so these guys know to go and beat South Africa, what it took one time and get absolutely shellacked the second time and what they need to do to prevent that from happening and get back up to a level. So I'm kind of getting less and less worried about that because the coach is confident that what he's seeing, he can get this group of players to where he wants to get them. And the example is, for everyone who criticises Super Rugby, Rassie is selecting guys out of the Japanese league who are stepping up for the Springboks and playing like world beaters. Now Super Rugby is better than the Japanese league, okay, let's just establish that fact right away. So if that's the case and Rassie can do that, he's not worried about that because I bet his message to those guys is, you know what it takes. You're absolutely mentally, emotionally ready for what this jump is. And if you're not, well, I'm going to find out real quick and you're not going to be in that team.
On Rennie vs Rassie
Brenden Nel: I wanted to ask you, Rassie is like this chess master, the grandmaster, we all think how clever he is and the things he comes up with. Dave Rennie is a similar coach, I mean, he beat us with the Aussies, with Moustachegate and everything else. I mean, are we seeing some of that kind of, does he have Rassie's number? I'm worried about that, to be perfectly honest with you.
Andrew Mehrtens: Again, it's something that we brought up and it's fascinating, isn't it?
On the Coach as the Lead Singer
Andrew Mehrtens: When have we seen in the era of Test Rugby where the coaches, I suppose Eddie Jones brought this as much as anyone else, but the coaches are so important and their thought patterns and their personalities and it's almost like they're the lead singer in the band and everyone's looking at them to see how they dance on stage almost, isn't it? I think that the battle between these two is going to be absolutely fascinating and Rassie is the grandmaster at the moment, but Dave Rennie is a deep thinker about the game and the people that he's got around him, I think that shows for a start. I also like the fact that he hasn't been in New Zealand coaching with men before, best part of 10 years now. And so he's not kind of flooded and overwhelmed by what happens in New Zealand rugby. We're so introspective. There's only so many of us here, the whole country's like this on it and he's gone through ups and downs. Look, he coached an Australian side that when you look at those players on paper, I mean, we always used to think if he was coaching the All Black names at that time, what could he have got out of that team? He got a hell of a lot out of those players, it's like Joe Schmidt, maybe the results aren't the best, but that doesn't mean he's not a great coach and he's actually effective with those players. Dave Rennie, I think it was a 3-1 record against the Springboks, I don't know what you can read into that. Joe Schmidt beats the Springboks last year and then you look at his players and go, wow, did that really happen? So I think you're right, I think this South African tour is completely separate from everything else that goes on this year. The July test and the November test, take those out of it. This is its own beast and I think he will have a plan and this is what he's looking at because he can cement a legacy in New Zealand rugby forever by going and winning that test series. That's the prize. For a lot of us, for me, winning in South Africa in 1996 is bigger than winning the World Cup. I know that a lot of people probably think, no, you're just saying that, no, no, no, no, no, 1996, because of the age and stage I am and the history and everything, winning in South Africa, if Dave Rennie does this, what an impetus and look, he's on a carpet ride for the next 10 years, if that's the case. So the incentives there, as well as just strategically, if he manages to pull this off and get one over you guys, wow, what does that say leading into Australia and everything else? So yeah, I think it's absolutely fascinating, the tactical duel going on with these guys.
On Preparation Time
Brenden Nel: I just want to ask, you mentioned something about 10 days before the test against France and Rassie, he's got his first lineup camp coming up and lots of names in there and names we haven't seen before, young guys and everything. What exactly is the plan with the All Blacks? Is he going to have enough time to get these guys together, he's wanted to do all these plans and get Graeme Henry and everything else, but he still needs to get the message across to the players. You just talked about it, you know, are they going to do that? What's the plan there? It's not a big window, is it?
Andrew Mehrtens: You know, I think if you're writing down how to prepare a team for a test match, 10 days, it's been brought up, the narrative is that, look, you don't get six weeks with your team or 12 weeks or whatever it is, like super rugby. Yeah, I think it's a handicap for us, no question. And if it was 10 days before the first South African test, it'd be a real worry. But I don't want to undermine these July tests, I don't know what you guys feel about it, but it feels like this is going to be the test pattern warm up. He's going to try a few things out during this, because there's no room and no time to try it out when we get to South Africa, there's none at all. And I know that there are URC games and things, but 44 players, genuinely, how many of those players play on a Wednesday and are playing on a Saturday, man, I don't think there's going to be that many, if any. Maybe a guy gets 10 or 15 minutes to stretch his legs or whatever. So I don't think 10 days is nearly enough time. But that's just what he's got to deal with, isn't it? Plus also, the fact he's over in Japan, again, it's not ideal, is it? You'd kind of want him to be here on the ground. And I know that the other guys are going and being his eyes and ears, and he's doing Zoom calls and things like that. But that is something that is a concern, no question.
On Rennie as a Storyteller and Culture Builder
Andy Capostagno: It's interesting because the other teams will all be focused right up front on this test series, but the All Blacks and Springboks and their fandoms are looking beyond it. Let's be honest, we're lying if we say anything other than that. We cannot wait for that to arrive. I know we're going to be hopefully doing some events together in South Africa, and just having fun with the fans and reliving something that we all grew up with, and bequeathing it to a new generation, teaching them what a real tour really looks like. I kind of start to think, and I'm with MVA here, I'm shaking a bit, because I'm worried about Dave Rennie, because I think he's a storyteller. I think he's a culture builder. I think Joe Schmidt's more the guy, if you had to get ready for one game, maybe an unlikely game, and his starter plays and his tactics spot on. But to build something, I worry about Dave Rennie because he's unperturbed. I can see him not worrying about what Rassie's saying, whereas I always felt like Razor, there was an avenue into his head, and he got nervous, I could see it, he was biting pens and clutching his brow. I just think Dave Rennie's just a no-nonsense, I'll meet you out back and we'll fight, kind of guy who his players love, right? I mean, isn't that your impression of him?
Andrew Mehrtens: 100%. And, you know, as I said, this is a guy who grew up in Upper Hutt. Now, you know, Wellington's our capital city, Upper Hutt is 30km away. Upper Hutt was Nappy Valley for all the factories out there. This is where my parents arrived, you know, with young kids, and it was built up on that. And so a lot of state housing, a lot of hardworking, you know, real working class people. It's certainly not a rich area in any stretch to the imagination. And that's how he grew up, and his first coaching gig was Upper Hutt, okay? And so he's come from real grassroots, Dave Rennie, and he's never had a carpet ride. And then, of course, he goes to Australia, that doesn't work out, then he goes to Glasgow. So he never thought that this job would come along. That's what he said. The idea of him being an All Black coach, he'd way given up on, yet it's something he's prepared for his whole life. And, you know, you've picked a street fighter there is what you've got. But you've also got a guy that, one of the great things when he went to the Chiefs, and our good friend Tony Johnson has written a book on this, which is coming out. He said that the thing he did more than anything else is the Chiefs franchise started off with, they had North Harbour in there, and, you know, as part of Waikato and Bay of Plenty. And then they had Northland. And I mean, this is just ridiculous. These should be in the Blues in, you know, geographical terms. So the first thing he had to do was actually join everyone together. And the Chiefs mana thing comes from him. And he went right back to roots, to, you know, where the people grew up, where they came from, and had to get that sense of family and sense of belonging and sense of everyone having ownership. Now, I draw a parallel with what Rassie's got going on at the moment with a squad, which is, you know, the team is everything. It's literally everything. And you have to buy into that. That's what Dave Rennie's all about, that mentality. And if you don't, you just won't be there. It's as simple as that. And that's one thing.
On Legacy and Understanding History
Andrew Mehrtens: And he talks about legacy. Now, last year, and I think I mentioned this to you guys, and it still disturbs me to this day, because these things disturb me. You know, I sat there and was interviewing All Blacks before they went on the Grand Slam tour. There were three of them. I won't name their names, but these are really high profile guys. And none of them knew what a Grand Slam tour was. And I'm sitting there going, well, hang on a second, why wouldn't you even have the curiosity to find out? You know, in 1978, when we first did that, that was momentous. Jack Gleeson, coach, Graham Mourie, captain. This was something that changed the All Blacks. And you guys, what, don't you care about this? You know, legacy and going to South Africa. And I've talked to Gilbert about this, and I talked to, we asked Dave Rennie about this. He's really big on this. I don't think Scott Robertson's regime was at all. But I just don't understand how you can be an All Black. How you can think about going to South Africa without knowing what it means. You know, Sean Fitzpatrick was on the show with us, and he talks about Don Clarke crying in that tunnel after Loftus and saying to him, I can die a happy man now. You know, gotta get stirred up when I start talking about this, because this is what it's about, isn't it? Coming to your guys' place, you know, and winning over there and becoming part of that level of being an All Black. You know what Richie McCaw talks about, not being this level, being a great All Black, and then being an immortal All Black by being incomparable because you've gone and done something and won something that no one else has. And if you don't understand what that means and what it means to the country, and what it should mean to you as a player, this is really important for Dave Rennie. I don't know guys, whether these are the last magic elements, the fairy dust that gets sprinkled on the top that says, I feel 10 foot tall and I'm ugly when I get out there. But to me, this is what it is, isn't it? This is the kind of stuff that motivates you to get back off the floor that last time and hit the guy again, but hit him harder than you did the last time, even though you're buggered and on the ground because of what it is, right? You know, I'm getting all psyched up now for the rivalry. Thank you.
Andy Capostagno: But I'm also thinking now of Dave Rennie in particular and thinking what a great time he finds himself in the All Black setup. You're right. It's historic. This would be the first one of these. He also didn't complain and whine when he got treated, I think horribly by Rugby Australia. And what would he have done there? I mean, just imagine what stories he could have told and now that we know, you know, how good Italy was, and that wasn't really as terrible a loss maybe as it should have been pinned with an Eddie Jones saga. So it's almost like this quiet spoken Upper Hutt guy, he gets his moment now. And so, you know, I hope we beat the pants off you and humiliate you. There's something very exciting about watching a guy go into the arena like that. Now I cannot wait to see Dave Rennie and Rassie meet at halfway like they always do and, you know, exchange pleasantries. I think that handshake is going to be one of those ones where there's going to be the full arm extension and then bring back a little bit with a little bit of a raised elbow to get a little bit of dominance.
On Player Buy-In
Andrew Mehrtens: Look, again, it comes back to the players and what they feel about him. And if you talk to those Wallaby players or read what they said, they were gutted when he got sacked from that Wallaby job. They really, they bought into him. The Chiefs players bought into him. He's coaching at the moment with Brodie and he's coaching with Richie Mawanga. These guys buy into him and they buy into his philosophy and he's one of those kind of guys. He does it without needing to be Scott Robertson, a different kind of guy. Scott Robertson's a charismatic guy, you know, but he's a different kind of charisma, Dave Rennie. He's just one of those guys. You kind of walk into the room and, OK, this is kind of weird, but you want to go and stand next to him. You know what I mean? That kind of guy. Yeah. Likeable. And humble.
Andy Capostagno: I mean, I think one of the things as well is that that spirit of knowing where you are, being honest about it, I would imagine he's not going to sugarcoat anything. Probably he's going to say playing for me is going to be hell because carry clean is hard. That means you have to get to so many rucks on time. It's actually a brutal way to play. I guess maybe the word brutality keeps coming back up, but Dave Rennie, I mean, that's just in today's world when most teams are going to kick, chase, kick space, chips, quick strike. Dave Rennie's old school. He's going to try and bash you and bash you until he scores.
On Rennie's Philosophy: Brutality and Commitment
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah. And he made no secret about that as well. And again, just going back, remind me to talk about the Mawanga thing before we finish the course. But going back to that, he's not interested in flashy plays. And he was specific about the loose forwards about this. And he said, he measures it completely differently. And so he said that there's a target line. And I think he had 85% or something and you have to, something like 85%, you have to get off the ground and you have to be in position and you have to be affecting something else. And he said, and he was quite open about this. He said a couple of years ago when he got Ardie Savea, he said, Ardie was just way below the line on this. And this is a guy that had been world player of the year and everything else. And we all just think, you know, Ardie Savea is a god. And yet he said, no, no, he said, I kind of, he said he had to retrain because I wanted more out of him. And he said that. So when I look at a player and if they haven't got over that 85% line during a game, he said, well, then they come back the very next day and I put them through 85%. And he had this routine where you hit a tackle bag, go down and up, and then you run over there and you do it again. And that was just one. And you have to do 85 of these. Right. And so that's what he said. And so that's really big for him. But that's physical commitment. And it's also, I believe, emotional commitment, the selfless commitment where, you know, everything is bigger than you and your heart has to burst before you come off that field and you have to physically fall over when you come off that field. And if you haven't done that, well, then you haven't done enough as far as he's concerned. This is the kind of motivation, I think, that he will instil in these players. There ain't no rock stars in that team anymore. There is no one that is bigger than anyone else. I think there's going to be a humility to the All Blacks, less of a swagger. I get the feeling it's almost like we've got everything to prove now. And I, as an All Black fan, I love the All Blacks like this. This was what it felt like in the quarterfinal against Ireland. They'd won 18 in a row. We'd been very underwhelming for two years. They'd come down here and beaten us. I sat in that stand, Harry, you know, and didn't believe we're going to win that game. And that's an unusual feeling for an All Black fan. And then we raised our game because, and again, guys, it comes down to the players, you know, we talk a lot about Dave Rennie. But ultimately, you can have whoever the coaches are. It comes down to who's on the field and how much they want it and how effective those guys can be. And that All Black group against Ireland played like they hadn't for two years. So what went on within that group of players? Take everything else outside of it. They're the ones that are going to go on and play the game and win the game. But you can instil whatever it is into them. But if they don't have that between each other as a togetherness and things, which is what the Springboks have got at the moment, we need to find that again. I believe that this guy is the guy that can do that.
On the Richie Mo'unga Selection Controversy
Andrew Mehrtens: I'm not saying Jamie Joseph couldn't have done that, but you really get the feeling with Dave Rennie. It could blow up in our face, of course. But he's instilling just a little, just a quiet resolve, if not confidence at the moment, just to resolve that. Let's go back to doing what we're really good at doing, which is the most basic fundamental aspects of a collision sport, which is owning you as an opponent. Are you ready for this? Do you want some of this?
Brenden Nel: Let me ask you this. You're talking about the basic fundamentals, and one of the basic fundamentals for any rugby match is you pick your best players. Richie Mo'unga is not coming to South Africa. What on earth, man? Come on. What's the story there?
Andrew Mehrtens: Look, and I'm so with you, and I don't know an All Black fan that isn't with you. And this was really interesting, actually, because we had Steve Lancaster, the CEO, in the room, and Dave Rennie, the coach there. And I put these questions to them. I said, OK, this is what it comes down to as a fan. I said to Steve Lancaster, you're the CEO, you've got to sell me this as a fan. I said, the most pragmatic approach that New Zealand rugby has got is we want to win this World Cup. And he said, yes, without a question. I said, OK, great. Let's tick that box. The next box is, will you do everything possible to ensure that the resources are there, that everything is available to win that World Cup? Yes. This is so important for New Zealand rugby financially as much as reputation, everything else. Yes. So as far as you're concerned, whatever it is that, whatever it takes, that's the pragmatism, that's the approach. Yes. OK, great. So what we've now got, one of the great players, is he available? Is he fit? Does he want to play? Tick, tick, tick. Does the coach want him? Tick. Well, how can you not reconcile those two things and pick this player? And so the CEO is sitting there and he says, oh, well, he gives the speech. He's a nice guy, Steve. But he gives a speech through the system lens that we're looking at it. But no one's buying the system lens, mate. What we're looking at is, does this guy want to play? Does Dave Rennie want him? And then Dave Rennie's sitting there straight afterwards and says, he says, look, that's New Zealand rugby's position. I respect the position. I was, I had him selected to start against the Stormers in the first URC game. Those were his words. So you've got a CEO that's saying, because of the rules, this guy can't play. You've got a coach that hasn't even started coaching yet. That's already selected him for the first game on that tour. So I called it a conflict. I've been criticised for calling that a conflict. I don't see how it is anything other than the conflict of two views. And look, and I've got to stress this as well. Richie Mo'unga is not this magic wand. We don't have this stick in our hand going, Richie Mo'unga's going to sprinkle this dust and the All Blacks are going to win. But what it is, is it's simply that we need every single person available. And when you look at our first five situation, and we didn't talk about this has before, you know, we've got Beauden Barrett, wonderful player, who's at the end of his career. Damien McKenzie, wonderful player, who hasn't yet stepped up to be in the consistent first five that we want at test match level, under load. Ruben Love, wonderful talent, hasn't had that experience yet. Do you play him in South Africa? Richie Mo'unga, retired at the end of 2023. And he wasn't like a Dan Carter first five. He had his ups and downs as well, let's be honest about it. But he's really experienced and he's a really good first five. Why wouldn't you have him there as an option? It just doesn't make sense to any of us.
Brenden Nel: You're exactly right. Also, we always say fine margins, you know, high performance, elite sport, we go, oh, it was fine. It was fine margins. Then we supply a fine margin. Mo'unga is that margin, right? He's, I don't know, he's worth three points, two points. That's what it comes down to. So it does my head in when people go, well, that's just one guy. Like, that's what it comes down to, is decision maker, 10 final five minutes. If I see Mo'unga on there, I'm worried. If I see Ruben Love, great player, but he's not ready. Damien McKenzie, seen that movie before, know how it ends. Yeah, I think it's a missed trick. And also, it's for any fan, for any true fan. South African fans want to see Richie Mo'unga. We want to see the big guys. We want to see, we want to have a win where there's no excuses by you guys. That's what it is.
Andrew Mehrtens: Oh, Lord, I hope there's no excuses. I hope there's no excuses. I mean, what about Mo'unga?
On Shannon Frizell and Overseas-Based Players
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, look, another one, Shannon Frizell, right? And he's an interesting case as well. Shannon Frizell was this guy that, since Jerome Kaino retired in 2015, I think we've tried something like 19 players at number six, right? And just think about that for a second. Our midfield, Conrad, as I said before, 15, sorry, 11 years. We still haven't replaced those two guys with a consistent pairing. That number six position in the All Blacks has always been such a big position. Again, it's blindside, Harry, okay? You know, you want a guy that shuts that blindside down. You want it so that when the halfbacks look around the side and goes, oh, it's Jerome Kaino. I'm not going down that road. I'm taking the off ramp. I'm going this way. And so Shannon Frizell was a guy that we all wanted to be that guy. And he kind of muddled around a bit. Then at Mount Smart Stadium against you guys, World Cup year 2023, he was a monster in that first half of that game. Then he became Shannon Frizell. He goes to the World Cup. He plays like that. Then we don't see him again. He stayed in Japan. And so, again, another guy, come back, committed to New Zealand rugby. To me, once you've signed that bit of paper that says here I am, I'm playing for New Zealand rugby, well, use him, New Zealand rugby. Use the guy. Look, I get, you know, the talk around it as well. We can't do what you guys do, and we can't let all our players go overseas and pick from overseas because Super Rugby would die if that's the case. We need our stars here so that kids can see them. And then, you know, you're looking at the telly. They're advertising Damien McKenzie on the billboards. But if you're going on to the game and he's not playing, well, you kind of feel ripped off. So we can't let everyone go. But somewhere in the middle of what you're doing and the staunchness of our rules, which seem ridiculous, is the answer for the All Blacks, whether it's the Giteau Law or whatever it is. But, again, I go back to, you know, what people like Steve Hansen say, what Ted Henry says, what Dave Rennie says. These guys know themselves whether they're ready and capable of playing at that level. They know. And if they are, and they are available, and they are keen. Again, with Shannon Frizell, we've got a big list of loose forwards. Is he better than Wallace Sititi at the moment? Good argument. Don't know. But would you want him in South Africa to smash and bash some URC sides to start with and have a look? Hell, yes. Hell, yes.
Brenden Nel: We want him, yeah. We remember that 2023 World Cup final. Don't you forget. There's something. There's some league over here for sure. Sorry to interrupt you. And also the depth. I mean, there's no way under God's green earth that three tests in, you're going to have the same side as you started with. There's going to be somebody we haven't talked about. There's going to be the emergence of a young star for the Boks or a young star for the All Blacks. So yeah, quite frankly, the more we talk about this, the more excited I'm getting about the actual thing itself. And no matter what the wrinkles are, what we wish was true, it's something about it.
On What Mehrtens is Most Looking Forward to in South Africa
Brenden Nel: I want to ask you about that. What most are you looking forward to about being in South Africa? What experiences are you looking forward to having? What places have you maybe dreamt of or thought about and now you're going to be there doing it?
Andrew Mehrtens: This more than anything else. Look, this is the ultimate in terms of our national game. Look, you can talk about World Cups, you can talk about Grand Slam tours, you can talk about any other rivalry, you can talk about the Bledisloe. This is it. This is what I grew up on, listening on the radio, getting up at three in the morning, watching these games. The fact we never played you for so long, the politics around it, all of that. And we're at the stage right now. Jamie Wall wrote a book called The Hundred Years War about this. And this is everything. But more than anything, first and foremost, I want to do this. I want to sit there in a pub, like you said, Harry, no stage, but I want to be meeting every single person in that pub. I want to be going around shaking hands and I want to be butting chests and I want to be yelling at people and I want to be getting all of that going on. I want to meet fans. I just want to meet people who love rugby so much like we love rugby. And these two nations, this is how we come together. So that's the first and foremost bit. Second bit, it's a real shame to me that some of the grounds I won't get to see. I grew up looking at that Cape Town Stadium, the original one where the stands were like Millard Standard Athletic Park. They just kind of vertically rose out of the ground. Kings Park, Durban, I looked at that ground and went, wow, look at that. I'd love to go there. I'd love to go to Loftus. That's a spiritual place for us All Black fans now because that's where we won the series was at Loftus. So I want to go to Ellis Park. I want to go to these grounds where all the history's taken place. Because I'm a real nerd. I'm a museum hunter when it comes to that kind of stuff. So the fans, that bit of it. And then the luckiness and the privilege we get of being able to go to press conferences. And as I said, we're right there. Harry, we were standing there under the stands at Eden Park when Ardie Savea and his 100th game was being interviewed. I remember we looked at each other with that look of wow, man. What the fuck are we doing here, Marty? I was like, what are we doing here, man? We don't deserve this.
Brenden Nel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Mehrtens: And so, you know, that to me, when you add those three elements into it already, I mean, I'm so excited about it. You know, I'm 62 years old. I mean, this is like, you know, unleash me in the toy shop because this is the biggest toy shop there is as far as I'm concerned. And I hope that when we get over there, that people really embrace this. I know that there's such a great rapport between the fans. And I think that every New Zealander that's going over there, it's probably a trip of a lifetime. It's not something that the rest of us will get to do ever again, probably, you know, that often. And so just to dive into rugby for eight weeks and see the country through a rugby lens and meet the people through a rugby lens and all of that kind of thing. You know, there's tourist stuff that I want to go do, obviously, you know, because you can't go there and not think about that kind of thing. And I'd be remiss not to mention that, you know, but the safari, the Robben Island, the sharks, all of those kind of things. But ultimately, first and foremost, I just want to shake hands with people and I want to be standing there, you know, chewing a boerewors leg at a braai. And it's my turn to scowl my pint. I want to just do some really goofy stuff like that.
Brenden Nel: Hey, we were there for you. You're going to be pleasantly surprised about how people want to argue with you in the most pleasant but fierce way. That's the way to describe it. I mean, they'll get into you, but they won't want to stop. And then by an hour in, you're thinking, this is my best friend. So I think you're going to be really, you're going to really enjoy it.
Stories of South African Fans
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah. Can I tell you a story? So the 2004 Athens Olympics, okay, and you'll be wondering why I'm telling this as a rugby story. So we're in Greece, and there was an All Black test against South Africa. And it was like about midday, I think, because of the time zone or something like that. It might have been one in the afternoon. And me and a mate, and I'm actually in a leisure suit, because it's Greece, it's hot, I'm in summer, I'm going to the Olympics, I'm in a leisure suit. So we walk into this bar, and it's pretty much just full of South African fans. There's like one other All Black fan in there. And so I'm looking around, and my friend who was with me said, oh, God, this is a bit, this is a bit, you know, and I said, no, no, no, you watch this. So I looked at the three biggest guys in the bar, and I went over to the barman, and I said, can I have whatever they're drinking, three of those, and a pint for me and a pint for my mate. And so I grabbed the three drinks that these guys were having, I walked straight up to the three biggest South Africans I could find, I went, righto, we're about here to kick your arse, butty. And just handed them all a drink. And I thought, two things are going to happen here. I'm out, physically out the door, or these guys are going to be looking at me going, who's this skinny little dude in a leisure suit barking at us? And that's what happened. And they were just, they just roared with laughter, and they just said, what? And I was, we were with them for the rest of the day, and that night, and hung with them for the whole time. And just, and we raved each other the whole time. You guys won that game. And so, you know, there were moments during the game that we were betting on everything, and I was giving it to them every time we scored points. And I copped a big, big ferocious one at the end, of course, when we lost. Same as when we were in Rome last year, and we saw the Wellington test in a bar in Rome. And there was me, my partner, my son, and a couple of other All Black fans surrounded by Springbok fans. And we were going the whole time. And in the end, we get our arses kicked with 43 points. But I, you know, how can you not enjoy that and the people that you meet? Because as I said, that's what this is about. You know, this is about two rugby nations. And there are very few countries in the world that compete like this at sport, that it means that much. Like, you think the Americans, they don't really do this. You know, they kind of compete with Iran at the moment, right? But they don't really kind of compete on a sporting level, do they? So, yeah, I'm embraced for it. And Sean Fitzpatrick keeps warning me. He says, you know, mate, he said, it's a different thing. He said that everyone, he says that everyone will stop you. Everyone wants to talk. Everyone wants to argue and all of that. Yeah, I just think it's heaven for six or seven weeks, man.
On the Rivalry
Brenden Nel: What I love about it, speaking of rivalries and such, and most like in boxing, they have to promote it, and it's fabricated, and they're gonna have this feud. And then someone looked the wrong way at the guy's wife, and he, you know, insulted his car, whatever. And it's contrived. This doesn't need anything. It's just All Blacks, Springboks in South Africa. Done. What else do you need? Who's Bob's?
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah. Yeah. And look, and we can talk it to death and we will talk it to death beforehand. But as I said, ultimately, it comes down to those guys who are big enough and man enough and capable of walking onto a field with that shirt on their backs and playing against 15 from the other side who is desperately committed. And, you know, how to be, just imagine what it must be like in that headspace, in that dressing room, in that cauldron to walk out and do that. Yeah. How much fun would that be? And then afterwards, if you've won that game, wow, just it's something that, you know, as a fan, you dream of, isn't it? And, and so, you know, these guys, Rassie and Dave Rennie will prepare their sides perfectly.
On the underdog narrative
Brenden Nel: Strength-wise, you know, we'll concede at the moment. We then don't even bother with this. We're the underdogs. We're playing that big underdog card and you're going to get it. It's going to be barking at you from the moment we arrived at underdog card. Okay. Cause you guys, wow. You beat us by 43 last year. You've won five out of six back-to-back world champs. You've got 50 players in every position. We can't compete. There's only 5 million of us. But I'll tell you what, sometimes it's the Staffordshire Bull Terrier that beats that big dog. We have no, we have no locks. We're going to play without locks with the underdogs because of that one thing. That's it. You have got this guy called Pieter-Steph du Toit, who to me is three players. You know, you've got Sacha who is at the moment reinventing the way that the first five position plays. You are leading the world in terms of how you rotate those players off the bench and how you infuse those into a game. You have developed three or four different styles of playing. And we saw that manifested in the second half against France, which was extraordinary. That 40 minutes of rugby that South Africa put out that day and the trajectory you were on at the end of the year. And then you've got a coach who everyone is living and dying on every breath and every word that he says and the inspiration that he provides. Then you've got that, that Khaleesi factor that I kept looking at these pictures of when you win the World Cup and what it does to you as a nation and how it brings you all together. So you adding all of these factors in, this is an enormous mountain that we've got to climb and to do it at your place, it couldn't be any more special. I'd rather be playing at your place than our place. Because I think that this is what the All Blacks need. We're going to find out at the end of this, everything we need to know about every single one of those players, every single one of those coaches going into a World Cup. The best preparation ever for a World Cup, because we're going to know and we can just strike them off now, right now, right now, you can't go to a World Cup. But so I don't, you know, whatever, however this turns out, everyone's still going to look at Australia in 2027. And so I think that we've got to look at it in these terms and think of what we can achieve over there. Of course we want to win. And also the other thing, can I ask you guys this, you know, 2-1, if we were up 2-1 over there, I don't care what happens in Baltimore, we've won that series. I don't care. But if you're down 2-1, you're going to want to win in Baltimore to square it up. It's so weird, isn't it?
Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, it's very weird. Listen, man, I'm with you on the idea that the Boks are going to have to win the favourite tag here, which is uncomfortable. We don't want it, we can argue. But in reality, that's true. I'm fascinated by your point of this is the best thing for the All Blacks to be far away from home and prove it. I think that's exactly 100% right. I mean, what a barometer Dave Rennie will have in September. I mean, he will just know exactly what's what. Plus also it's that travelling mentality you get where you kind of, you feel the world's against you and you just got yourselves and your mates around you and that's what you've got. You know, it's like being an away fan going to a football game in England that, you know, it's just, man, look at this. You know, all we can do is get there on the train, get to the ground and get back home again in one piece. But the exhilaration you feel and all of that kind of thing. And I think that the All Blacks, when we're travelling, I think this is going to be really good for a lot of these players. And as long as they can keep away from the distractions, because there's going to be a lot. And if I'm South Africa, I'm kind of tempting those All Blacks into everything. I want them here. I want them doing promotional because, you know, Dave Rennie is going to have to really put the circle of the wagons on that and almost have a, I think another kind of team or another group of people that do a lot of the promotional stuff. You know, his job is to get the players ready, not to be shaking hands and making plans. His job is to get the players ready for those games. So how he manages all of that is a new thing for him as well. But that's why I think he's brought guys like Gilbert Enoka back, because those guys know, they know what it takes to focus completely on what the job is, as opposed to, you know, everything else that goes along with this. And ultimately at the end of it, you know, you walk out with that result. As I said at the start, you're immortal, man. And, and, and, you know, we're dreaming of this at the moment that just what say we managed to go over there and do it. What does that do for the whole of world rugby? How does it flip the script on absolutely everything? What an incentive and what a prize. And if you can't be filled with that thinking, that's what I want. It's up there. I'm going to reach for that thing. If I don't, if I don't get it, I might get really close, which might be good enough for the World Cup next year. But wow, let's have a crack at that. What I'm going to do the night before the first test, though, is bring some bad bunny chow over to the team and infect them with some Durban poison.
Brenden Nel: Not for the first time!
Andrew Mehrtens: Not for the first time! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watch out. And also I'm taking you onto the pitch with me because, you know, I've got a great strategy to get on there. Enoka knows it. And, and we'll be just, you know, right there at the kickoff, we'll be standing there catching the ball. I can't wait. You know, it's just, it's a dream come true. It really is. And, and to think that we get to do this and, you know, the humbling thing about it is, as I said, right at the beginning, you know, when you're sitting there next to the All Black coach and you're going, wow, this is just me, you know, and I'm 62 years old and I feel like a kid sitting there and I just, I'm in awe and wonder. And then I remember I've got a job to do and I've got an audience and I've got to get my head right and make sure I ask the right questions and all of these, but you can't help but feel that. And if you don't feel that, you're not alive, man. You know, if you don't, if you don't feel that when you walk into somewhere and there's the All Black coach and he says, hi, Martin, and you shake his hand and he goes, he's, what is he calling me, man? Well, then, well, you know, this is New Zealand, I know, but if you don't feel something from that and get a kick out of that, well, you'd, as I say, you shouldn't be there, you know, shouldn't be.
Andy Capostagno: Amen, brother. Yeah, we love that. I tell you what, we love that. Yeah. I tell you stories when we meet. So that's a story for another, for another day. I think we have to wrap this up. It's quite late over here and I think you've had some bad news while we were talking. I watched it and I was like, oh, this is not going well.
On the Stormers result
Andrew Mehrtens: Stormers lost, Martin. We got the losing bonus point. I don't like bonus points, but we got the losing bonus point. So I'm like, okay, fine.
Andy Capostagno: You're taking it well, man. Well done. I was watching your face. But what does this mean? So what does this mean for the URC? Do you get a home semi or a home final? How does this work?
Andrew Mehrtens: We don't know what happens until Leinster plays, but it, now we're in danger of having to play semi-finals away in Dublin. This is just the first hammer blow of many this year, boys. Get used to the feeling, it's only going to get worse.
Brenden Nel: Watch my Boks, we're coming. If it wasn't for that damn last bonus point kick, we could have ended up ahead of the Stormers. But anyway, sorry, Martin.
Andy Capostagno: Thanks, Marty. That was fantastic.
Brenden Nel: If it's only for this, if it's only for that, if it's only for this, if it's only for that, the whole sporting fandom has been, it's just, this is what I live. This is how I live. It's the stuff of sports radio, isn't it? Just, ah, but we just missed that one kick. We're fine. Yeah, just, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Mehrtens: Great seeing you both. Hey, let's do this again.
Andy Capostagno: Cheers, man.
Announcer: This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby.