Nienaber the Sacrificial Lamb? Lekker Rugby Pod Makes the Case Against Leinster's Boardroom Politics

The Leinster Duplicity

Harry Jones: So from the very inside of Leinster, I'll give you a quote: worst coach we've ever had, probably cost us three cups. Doesn't see things, is completely blind. But really good in the boardroom and really good at saving his hide. Whatever plans you had, I'm gonna get stabbed by a root somewhere and it's whoever adapts and whoever is okay with a street fight, whoever's okay with just closing your eyes, putting your arms around your head and just going down the river and just believing yourself and the people around you. That's who's gonna win. That's probably where Glasgow's weak point is. You know, let's pick five guys from each team to go out into the alley and fight. I picked the Bulls. So if they can make it that kind of game, I think Bulls win.

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Two Years and Counting

MW Welman: Welcome back to the special anniversary edition of the Lekker Rugby Pod. You know, I just stumbled across the fact that today is a two-year anniversary. Well, happy to happy happy anniversary, I suppose, if I think to say, but it's been a while. It's been a road.

Harry Jones: Yeah, man. It's been great. I really, I cannot think of anything bad. I think maybe personality-wise I'm this way anyway, but in truth, this has been a lot of growth. We've grown in audience. We've grown in subscribership, we've grown in opportunity. We've grown into access. But also along the way we became friends and that's cool because let me tell you, looking behind the curtain, there's a lot of, you know, rivalries and envy and not so much friends in this business. And it's really cool to have taken this leap with you when you gave me the invitation. I was intrigued and I wasn't sure how it will work. Worked a lot better than I thought was gonna work and I thought it was gonna work pretty well.

MW Welman: I was about to ask you, what were your expectations when you start? Were they any?

Harry Jones: Oh, they say the happiest country in the world is Denmark and they drilled down into that and they realise it's because the Danes have very low expectations. So they're always happy. I know I tried to always imagine the worst-case scenario in all parts of my life at all times without any relenting. So that has resulted in a happy Harry because I really just think, wow, this is great. Everything is great. But this thing, this north-south, this sort of odd couple, this, you know, loyal stable Praetorian with this roguish Cape Tonian who cannot get his head out of his arse, this thing... Yeah, I think it's fantastic. It's a microcosm of so many other things and every time we've put this template on top of a scenario, a situation, a person, a guest, it really works. It always, it's crackling and I think, yeah, it's better than some of our parts because I don't think we could have come up with this in a solo way. But I want to ask you a silly question, but you know, when did you realise that we are actually, this is actually working? I mean, you know, I just started the first episode of ever shot, my cat was doing the walkabouts on the bookshelf behind me and it was all kinds of challenges and I was struggling with the English, the late at night kind of a thing. And when did you realise it's actually working?

Harry Jones: Oh, when Jake White called me and shouted at me.

MW Welman: It's a nerve!

Harry Jones: Let me teach you a rugby lesson in via. Yeah, I mean, I do my name. I know that's exactly what it was, right?

MW Welman: Rather your favourite guest if you want to look back quickly.

Harry Jones: Oh, wow. It's probably this side-by-side thing we're doing. So it's a double guest and I got to say I probably enjoyed Ritu Shlingwani and Ben Jason Dixon almost too much where I forgot my outline. I had such good questions and I just, I lost my way just listening to such a great motivational speaker. But all the guys, you know, I think probably the rivet of that is relationship with John Dobson. Dobbo. What a great man. And that's been one of my favourite things too, just to get the insights and I don't betray them. There's an awful lot of things he shares as it's a lonely job as Rassie pointed out at the top, you know, it's difficult. So yeah, probably that and then I think the idea of the knowledge behind the scenes, which I know you're getting a lot of us by the Bulls. It's very intriguing. I'm really enjoying the behind the curtain stuff.

MW Welman: Yeah, for me the difference was when I spoke to someone about it last night actually is we never got to interview Jake. Once he made many, many promises, but he never made an appearance. We've spoken to Jacques twice already. We've spoken to Neil de Bruyne, we've spoken to Dobbo. And that's also Dobbo after we had to either mend some breaches there. And that to me is what the big difference is.

Jacques Nienaber

MW Welman: Any enough praising our own backsides? Yeah, let's move on to the big news at the moment. Jacques Nienaber. What is going on there? I mean that journalist, I called it, you called it, you go into phrase, but I actually use it in our WhatsApp conversation. It's got a lot of dorsitude. I'm actually thinking of making that our caption. Honestly, that is just ridiculous. It's a high level. It's a lofty level of Leinster dorsitude. Wow.

Harry Jones: If you get into the Leinster mindsets and you realise a couple of things. One is Ireland's got rich. But if you say Ireland got rich, what really happened was a particular part of Ireland got very rich off of changes in the economy or being on the edge of Europe or being the exact middle, you know, between New York and London, sort of the outpost, but also highly educated, ready to go and ready for this new economy. But as they got rich, they took on some swagger too and there's a breed of subculture in the Donnybrook South Dublin area that the rest of Ireland doesn't necessarily appreciate and it's very haughty. It's very almost reminiscent of, you know, the class system. And so they've gotten a little bit ahead of themselves in some ways. And I think this Jacques Nienaber thing points it out and in the death of logic.

So here's my run through. Before Jacques Nienaber was hired, Leinster needed something. They wanted something. They said please, please, please come, come save us. It wasn't like they were sitting on top of the mountain and then Jacques came and messed it up. They couldn't get over the mountain and every time I got out-physicalled by a French team, someone pointed out, was this never gonna work unless we get someone who can stop teams? Who's one of the best stoppers in rugby history ever who could work out systems and stop them? Oh, Jacques Nienaber. So they go hand and they are going begging for Jacques to come. Jacques delivers them something they hadn't had in a while, which is a cup by stopping the Bulls, just stopping them. And this is a high-scoring Bulls team as you know, it just obliterated that attack, humbled the Bulls, got the cup in the trophy room. There it is in the cabinet.

Now the next thing to solve was gonna be Europe. What's Europe's problem? The French teams can match the budget and then some of Leinster. So it's not gonna be just rocking up and being better or stopping someone. You're not gonna stop Bordeaux. So it was about containment. Jacques, please contain them. He did contain them. They scored two tries, one off Damian Penaud's knee and other one off an intercept from a system that's run by Tyre Blyendal. Heard of him? Nobody has. He's 35 years old. He's a Kiwi and for some reason it's never his fault. I don't know what pictures he has, but they developed attack and never went anywhere. They scored 19 points or something, way below average. Jacques kept Bordeaux at average, even if you've even if you put the two tries he didn't let in on his ledger. So actually, I think he did perform fine.

And then all you hear about is Nienaber. You don't hear about Leo because Leo is Mr Leinster. He's involved at every board committee, subcommittee, non-profit drive. He has history. But they came to Jacques. I mean, he didn't, it wasn't like they were on top of the mountain and they want to get. So they brought him, he gives him a cup. They fall short in a cup where the attack was the thing that just got stymied. It took forever to score. They were knackered and then they say, well, you do defence is tiring out the attack. It was the attack that scored first and they looked literally like they were dying after that first try and they never recovered.

So I don't understand what the brief is to attack Jacques, but clearly that was the main attack. My sources tell me from the good part of Dublin, the part that is exceptionally fun to be around, very fair-minded, very careful with facts, is that Leo has been a problem for a long time. He's like the old man who won't quit. He keeps saying, oh, yeah, but I'm gonna turn over the reins, you know, I'm tired of doing this, you know, you just do it. But every time something happens, he takes the reins back just enough where it messes up the whole system. He's profoundly uninspiring. He repels knowledge and he doesn't have any way of taking in the new rugby. So you're putting, you're hanging out someone to dry if you just said Jacques, take it. Then he would do something and the attack would not look like this. Anyone saying that Jacques has control of this attack, this is so fucking far from what Jacques would put on the field. It would be much more like boxing and Bordeaux, which is quick strike, counter-attacking, use defence as attack and then go, click, attack, everyone flood the channels and score. It's not this, you know, building 25 phases. That's never been Jacques' way.

So the whole thing is scrambled and then you have this guy, I don't know how to pronounce his name, O'Connor, who writes something and it's self-aggrandising. It's like he's the centre of the story. Suddenly we're supposed to live through his emotions. I'm in your seat, Mr O'Connor. Oh, how wonderful it would be to be you to finally grill someone, a nice man like Jacques Nienaber who's just trying to do his job and he's constrained by his employment agreement from saying what he really thinks. So I'll get you, gotcha, getcha, gotcha all the time. And then at some point he kind of, he's hot fool and he blows and good for him. I'm glad he said it. I'm also kind of good for the Stormers. Maybe we'll capitalise. But, you know, there's something really rotten going on now where everyone's just pointing at each other and they're in a circular firing squad.

MW Welman: I wonder how you pronounce that name. Rodri. Rodri. Rodri. Probably Rodri. I don't know. It's rubbish. Rubbish O'Connor. Rubbish O'Connor. There we go. That's like a South African spin on it for you. So take your job, you know, just bashing and stuff. But I mean, honestly, there's a bit of an agenda going on. Leo is obviously setting the ground to offer up someone as a sacrificial lamb and that's gonna be Jacques Nienaber. Double World Cup-winning coach of the Springboks. I mean, okay, he was with us. It doesn't matter. He is still a Rugby World Cup winner and he went to Leinster. Took a bit of a downgrade for his family. He didn't want to travel anymore. And this is how they treat him. They call him the devil. You've made a deal with the devil. Honestly, and I'm getting really worked up about this now and not because he's this, you don't talk to people like, I mean, I've sat in many, many press conferences as have you. I haven't seen this level of almost disrespect, I suppose you can call it. And clearly, listen, like a lamb led to the slaughter and just left alone. We just heard now, Leinster doesn't even have a media office at the moment. They just let things happen in the week before the semi-final after they've lost the Champions Cup final. You know, like you just said, there's not even something rotten there. That smells, stinks to high heaven if you ask me.

The Fix Is In

Harry Jones: The fix is in. So what's happening now is this is classic and so they're doing a drip, drip, drip and then it'll feel like it was Jacques's decision and that's how they portray it when, you know, when it ends. But it didn't have to be this way. My thought experiment for everyone and I would beseech you, our Irish listeners, to answer this fairly. If you had a poll of all the players and all the coaches, assistant coaches, head coaches in the top four leagues as well as the test nations, so all the big guys and also URC, Prem, Top 14, Super Rugby, and you said defensive coaches, stack, force rank them, you know, just do that, Jacques is gonna be in the top five in everyone's list. He'll be top three in most and he'll be the top in plenty. Tyre Blyendal for attack. Who the fuck is he? No one knows. He won't even be in the top 50. Hopefully he turns into a good coach. Bless him. Leo Cullen, average to below average. Good at getting people to stay because he has lots of money. Uninspiring and as I said, repels knowledge. He doesn't have the ability to change, adapt, evolve.

So from the very inside of Leinster, I'll give you a quote: worst coach we've ever had. Probably cost us three cups. Doesn't see, doesn't see things. He's completely blind. But really good in the boardroom and really good at saving his hide. You ever run into a guy like that? We all have in every business. He's probably gonna survive. But it wasn't that, that's not right. And if they could see why they lost. So here's the problem. I've always said this, you've got to know why you lose. You've really got to know. It's not enough to just go, wow, that was horrible. I'm humble. We lost. That's terrible. I accept the loss. You have to analyse why you lost in order to win. And we've seen that with coaches who can do it with less resources like Franco Smith, you know. You know why they lose. They can actually tell you exactly why and it's really interesting when you hear it because you go, oh, that's it.

Leinster vs Stormers

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Glasgow vs Bulls

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Too Close to the Teams?

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On Eddie Jones and the Psychology of Defeat

Andrew Mehrtens: You know, and I think Eddie Jones never figured that out about 2019 and it scuppered his whole career after that and it can bedevil you, it can make you crazy. Bedevil you, it can make you crazy. It may have been what also afflicted a bit Jake White. So when something happens when you think you should win and you lose, that's terrible. In this case, Bordeaux was favoured, so it was always going to be a tough one, you know, and they didn't get close. And so, but I think the analysis of why they lost is way off in much of Dublin. Not in the thinking part. Not in the part that actually made the island rich, by the way, you know, the people who actually thought, you know, through and are brutally honest and efficient. But there's a lot of this sort of parasitical class that runs around and they just act like they invented it and they don't know anything. Rubbish.

O'Connor, I would challenge him to come on our show and just go head-to-head. And let's go through the game and see why Leinster got, you know, beaten so badly. It ain't the defence. Let me just give you a plot twist preview.

Brenden Nel: No, it's quite clear that he was drip-fed, I suppose, talking points, you know. You said you're on the programme, but implying that he's actually running the attack. He never said that. He said he runs how much time they're going to spend in a week on this and they've only got 180 minutes in the week to prepare. So, but now they're trying to, you know, paint it as if he's running the attack as well. That's something else.

But what I did like about Jacques' approach to this, and he could clearly see he was quite worked up, is the fact that he saw it for what it was and he called it out. He says, you guys are being pressured so that the CEO can fire me at the end of the day without the CEO firing me, kind of a thing. And that's what—you can see it coming clearly. So that means one side. The other question is, what happens? Does he leave a year earlier than he should? If he was—he just signed the other day to stay until 2027. Is he coming back to South Africa? Is he going to take up Sharks director of rugby or Bulls, whatever? Or where is he going? Or was he going back to Wales, to the Boks?

On Nienaber's Future and Rassie's Options

Andrew Mehrtens: I suppose if he leaves early. I just pinged Hendrик Cronjé and asked him, so does Rassie get Sean Edwards or Jacques Nienaber? The two best defensive coaches in our era. Let's just—in the century, okay? I'm not even sure that there were defence coaches in the '80s when I was playing. Defence was optional and it was a lot of arm tackling and lunging and really easy tries. Defence is a whole new animal and these two guys, Sean and Jacques—I mean, amazing. They should open up a consulting business and just call it Rugby D, you know, Jacques and Sean. Or is it Sean and Jacques? And make sure that everyone comes to them and they'd make a pretty penny.

But yeah, I could see Rassie licking his lips and saying, you want to be that stupid? Okay, we were going to have him anyway, but we'll have him early.

Brenden Nel: Hmm. But what about a guy like Jay Flatley? I mean, he's pretty well set. I'm saying the Boks setup is quite settled, but you want to disturb that a little bit, you know, a year out from the World Cup, I suppose, and just before the season starts, maybe?

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, that's the one thing that, you know, I mean, those are like chums. That's boytjies, like Jacques and Rassie could mend fences. It could be delicious. They could argue really well.

The shutdown effect of Jacques Nienaber in that run that he had is unparalleled. I mean, Jerry's trying to get to that point where you can shut teams down, and perhaps that's really not where Bok rugby is going. So there might be an argument that Jerry fits better into the Felix Jones–Rassie counter-attack mode than Jacques. I don't know. I don't know that. I cannot really—

So here's the thing. It's hard to judge Jacques right now in Leinster because it's difficult to know what he's allowed to do and what he's working with. And to some extent, when you have centrally contracted players through the IRFU, you have to play them. And it might be that Jacques would like to drop some people and play more athleticism and find more of that, but he has to stick with the sort of, you know, the plough horses. And no, he's not allowed to get those tricky horses that can, you know, turn quicker. And it's a big backline. That was my impression when they played Bordeaux—they were difficult. It was difficult for them to turn and they didn't scamper very well. Hugo Keenan is the only one that looks like a scamperer. Jamison Gibson-Park always knows where the ball is going to be, but his body cannot give him—you know, he can't get him there anymore.

So when Jacques is working with the superior athletes that he has in the Bok camp, Buckland, you know—I understand that. I could understand the argument that Jacques is working with such athletes, it's difficult. Maybe he's overrated, you know. I get that argument. But he knows what to do with them, and there's something to that too.

It's one thing to be given Kwagga Smith at prime, Jess and Kolbe, you know, athletes like Aphelele Fassi or Ethan Hooker. There's some really crazy athletes. And I get that. Canan Moodie. But someone still has to be able to mould them together and make them eat fire and, you know, spit out nails. And Jacques' emotional leadership there is what I'm talking about. Garry Ringrose has been quite public that the Garry Ringrose we know now, which is a highly physical, fearsome guy, that's a Nienaber creation. He wasn't that way before.

On Silos in Coaching Structures

Brenden Nel: Talking about silos, you're talking about there might not have been defence coaches in the '80s or the previous century, for that matter. Nowadays you have attack coaches, defence coaches, and, you know, transition coaches. Isn't Leinster still a little bit too in a silo? This is your defence, you focus on this, and this is attack, and we'll focus on this, and never the twain shall meet, kind of a thing. Isn't that part of the problem?

Andrew Mehrtens: Yes. If I was hired to be the fixer for Leinster, I would say we're going to break these walls down first. So you work really hard, you know, on defence. You say, get the ball back. But you don't get the ball back to then go, I'm giving you the ball now, attack. Now you go attack for a while. You might win the ball and immediately kick it over the top again and go back on defence, but in a better place because it's more territorial than it is possessory.

So if I just keep giving the ball back but in a worse spot, worse spot, worse spot, I'm almost giving you all the possession you want. So how does that get coached on a defensive standpoint? Paul de Villiers turns the ball over, Ben Jason Dixon counter-rucks, and the ball spits out. Now, what does Healy McKee Kant do? Maybe kicks it right over the top again. So is Healy McKee Kant being defence or is he being attack? Which coach is in his ear at that moment?

You've got to have synergy around where you want to play and how you want to play at breakdown. At more—because, you know, you could switch in a moment from defence to attack and on the kicking game. So when the kicking game starts to go—we call it kick tennis sometimes—but it's more about making you make a mistake. What do I think when I'm sitting there in the middle and I'm Evan Roos and I'm watching the ball go over my head and I stop and I stop and I stop? Am I on defence or am I on attack?

So rugby isn't so neatly placed, and Leinster does that to their peril. Ireland doesn't. The same players put on a green shirt and they look a lot more connected. And it's very interesting.

So, you know, I would always look at the top first and say, Leo, you've been there a long, long, long time, and the failures rest much more heavily on you. I don't know why they're equally shared with Jacques somehow, or maybe even more Jacques. He just got here. He's produced a cup you couldn't. And it looks like you made a bad hire on attack, or you should have said to everyone, it's going to be a while before our attack is good again, you know. Tyler's still learning his business.

But if you looked—if you did a Google search and you said Jacques—and you had Tyler Nienaber versus Blyendaal, you know, it's going to be 1,000 to 1 against Jacques. And I don't understand that at all. It's clearly the obvious—hey, the problem is not the defence. The problem is the attack. I mean, any blind man with a stick can see it.

Anyway, that's enough of that.

On the URC Semi-Final: Leinster vs Stormers

Brenden Nel: Let's talk about this coming weekend, semi-finals. The very same Leinster playing against the poor baby Stormers, as you call them. Severely depleted stocks. Sasha Feinberg-Mngomezulu is out for what's it, three months, I suppose. Seabelo Senatla not available. Big setback. We talked about him last week. Of all those side-by-sides, I actually enjoyed that one the most because I was most surprised by the two personalities. I love that one specifically, and I'll put the link up here.

But talking about that, firstly, you put out a little spreadsheet that we talked about in terms of the cap gap, you know, how much experience, international experience, Leinster guys have compared to the Stormers, the severely depleted Stormers. It's like I just said, and I'm not making excuses right in advance, people, before you crucify me again. I'm just saying reality is—if it's the fact—there's a lot of players not playing for the Stormers that ideally would have been playing. So down to almost bare bones, I suppose.

Andrew Mehrtens: Even if all the Stormers were there—Sasha Feinberg-Mngomezulu, you know, primarily—it would still be a cap gap. Even if you put Frans Malherbe in, you know, one of the highest caps, just because it's unbelievably unusual how many capped players Leinster has. So there's 20 players in the top 20 caps if you took all of the two teams together, of everyone they can choose from right now, and you say, what's the top 20 guys with caps? Nineteen of them are Leinster, and the one is Damian Willemse.

So, and then beyond and underneath that, there's another—there's much more Leinster as well. So it is absolutely a mismatch in caps. And I use test caps just because it's the most correlative factor with knockout rugby. And if we put, you know, World Cup knockout wins, then actually Stormers would have six to nil because Damian Willemse has won six knockout games.

Sorry to be cheeky. But the statistic of test caps is actually instructive and it's informative. And Leinster's lost people too as well, like RG Snyman, you know. So I'm not doing any kind of trickery there. I'm saying that's a fact.

Now, Dobbo has done a different thing with that. Dobbo said, you know, obviously he announced his five-year project when he came on our pod the first time, and it was year one, and we're year two now, and arguably ahead of schedule because challenging for a semi-final. And for him, it's almost like a better barometer of the project. Because it'd be one thing if everyone was there. Kwagga Sasha starting 9-10 would be great. And with Senatla—it was unbelievable on the wing, on the kick chase. You got all your people there, you're ready. You know, your lineout callers, maybe you had JD Schickerling, who is probably our best lock in place. But they don't.

And Dobbo's taking the opportunity to enjoy this week and instil guys with pride and also the power of possibility. And so, look at this, you know, Jurie Matthee, look at this. What a cool thing you have. Instead of, you know, talking about Sasha all the time, talk about Jurie. Like, what do you see? You know, he's got a fantastic skill set. You see it in times where he does things that other flyhalves don't do. He does things that Sasha doesn't do. I mean, Sasha does more things that Jurie cannot do, but there's stuff that Jurie does that's very, very good.

Give a guy like Imi Khan confidence. Like, hey, you know, you gave up a few points last week with a few things. You also took a few back. Let's see a better performance. And it's, to me, it's one of those great opportunities. And Dobbo's thinking, this will give us a better read of where we are in the project than if we had everyone, because then we're relying on the big guys. Let's see where our depth goes. Let's take a red-hot swing. It's a free swing.

All the power, all the pressure rests on Leinster. This would be the biggest choke. And Leinster's got some great chokes. I mean, in the history of chokes and chokedom, Leinster is the choke king, you know. They are the choke kings. But if they could choke this weekend, it would be the best choke ever. It would be amazing. Like, there's no way they should lose. They should just walk on and, you know, we should just be happy to be on the field with them. You know, they should put 60 on us and they should not let us score. So congratulations if you choke. And, you know, I imagine the recriminations will be even better. Press conferences in Leinster, in Dublin right now, are the coolest thing to watch in rugby. They're even better than the game.

Brenden Nel: I was about to say, better than the game.

Five Ways the Stormers Can Win

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah. I think the Stormers can get in there and win. And here's why. There's five ways that Leinster has seemed to give opponents opportunities.

Head-to-heads always really matter with players. So 35-0 is not a joke. First game of the URC. No one in the Stormers thinks it'll be 35-0. What I'm saying is, the confidence that comes from actually, like, holding your opponent down and just walking over, just literally putting tyre tracks on his face—you don't forget that. And if you're on the revenge side, you can often try too hard and get all caught up in that. So I think on the emotion factor and confidence factor, with the same cast of characters—it was Jurie, you know. It wasn't like the Stormers were stacked in the first game either. And they took care of business.

Second thing is, the scrum is unavoidable. And, you know, the two front rows—Malonga, Dweba, you have Nkunu, and you have Fouché—just munching, like obliterating people, with really strong hookers, JJ and André-Hugo Venter as well in the scrum, backed by a pack that really cares. Brok Harris, tip a hat to him. He's unbelievable. The 60-plus penalties won by any scrum. It's the best in the world in just winning penalties. I'm not talking about other metrics, but that one. Andrew Porter has sometimes given up six penalties in a game. I was at a game between England and Ireland where England was carded in the first two minutes and they were still in the game at minute 60 because Andrew Porter couldn't scrum. So I think that's green light.

First one is the head-to-head. Second one is the scrum. Third one is they require so many phases to build attacks because their attack is sick. Then guys like Paul de Villiers and a host of characters who get over the ball love that. The pilfer-per-carry, pilfer-per-phase, very high for the Stormers. And it's from that that guys like Imi Khan, young guys, Jurie, Imi, can really springboard. I don't know who's going to start at 12. It might be Johnny Kotze, might be Dan du Plessis. But that kind of fractured ball is what they like, and Willemse feeds off it too.

And the fourth thing is they've got problems at 10 as well. Leinster has never settled this season on who is my leader, who's my field general. It reverts then to Jamison Gibson-Park. And you know what South African teams can do to a team that depends on a nine. We'll find him and we'll put him in the Irish bin, so he will be in trouble all night long. So that's the problem. Is you put it on nine, then you get Antoine, you know, and then suddenly the GOAT looks like a lamb. That's the problem, because the 10 hasn't stood out. They haven't had Sam Prendergast have his moment. They haven't had Harry Byrne have his moment. I don't know who wants to make that kick to win or not win. That's not fun.

Whereas I think, you know, I think Matthee has been a very good goal kicker, and his strike is good, and I don't fancy he'll crumble. He seems to be made of stern stuff.

On Leinster's Discipline Issues

Brenden Nel: The final point that Leinster gives you is they get carded a lot. They are the highest carded of all the teams that made the playoffs. And it's also you look at how many, where the cards come from. It's not all on defence, it's on attack, it's on a cleaning. Their ruck cleaning is very suspect and been looked at very hard this year by the referees. And the problem is it's hard to shirk a weak scrum. The refs know your weak scrum before you come in, and so they're already inclined to see you as weak. And then on carded, dirty, high, crock roll, all that stuff, they already briefed on it. So Holly Davidson is going to have her mind already set to say, I'm going to watch James Ryan very closely, Joe McCarthy very closely. And I'm saying to Holly, please watch James Ryan and Joe McCarthy really closely. Because every second fucking ruck that they do is wrong, and is incredibly filthy. So I'll just tell you about that. And I've watched every ruck James Ryan did in a game once, just to understand how hard he works. Love his work rate, love how hard he plays. But the man plays dirty. I did too. So I'm not even saying it's bad.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah. Talking about Holly Davidson, you know, there's this tendency to use it, use it, use it, even if the ball's under the block's feet, but you are using it to gain, to try and enforce a penalty. Is she a proponent of play away? Or is she more inclined to what those penalties that you were talking about?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, so there's a lot. When you're one of the first referees of a particular group, in this case, gender we're talking about, it's difficult. You don't, I guess you don't want to be, you don't want to be the headline for the wrong reasons. So I imagine that there's been behind the scenes, a mandate on all refs about this issue of not letting scrums be the centrepiece of rugby. Let's play more rugby. Scrums aren't rugby. Use it because scrum's not using it. Now, you know, I think that scrum is using it. Scrum is rugby. And that when you're making the opponent prop squeal, and imagine how fun it is to hear Andrew Porter squeal. Imagine that squeal sounds really, really ugly. And let him squeal and let us use the ball to make Andrew Porter squeal so that later, when we're playing, you know, rugby you like, maybe we'll go around him because he'd be tired. You know, the maul, the scrum, these things are, there's a way of sapping energy and forcing you to be, to decide whether you're a man or a boy. And I think that's fair. That's part of rugby. So that's always been clear is that when you're moving your scrum forward and the ball's not in the back back row, under the eight feet yet, then it is being used and you should be able to scrum the entire length of the field. Or under the post penalty try, whatever. So that's wrong. But I think World Rugby has put a lot of pressure from Sir Bill Beaumont on Sir Billy with his big arse was always talking about how we got to make scrums less important. You know, I mean, that it's a sap on the the attraction to new fans, and it's hard to explain to casual fans, this mythical tribe of people in the Amazon somewhere that we don't know that we want to attract instead of attracting guys like me, who will go around the world to watch you. I think, you know, the Stormers have definitely made that approach that memo to the rest is a lot of talking before games to the refereeing team. And they will have made that case that don't like watch carefully before you say use it look under and see if the ball still under Ruben's feet, and not Evan's, because there's a really big difference in the law, you know, it has to be stable, set finished, stop the movement and the ball has to be there before you make me use the ball. Because until then, I'm allowed to see if I can make Andrew squeal. That's just part of the game. You're not allowed to get out of it, you know, and either you either get dominated or you get the penalty. Either way, it's fine. That's the scrum weapon. So that's where I think a lot of those things that come from. The second part is, Holly, Holly gets in good positions, in my opinion, but fitness has never been more important for a referee in today's rugby because of how many attack sets there are, and how many rucks and how many close calls there are. So I don't think the problem is or fitness think sometimes she takes very conventional lines to the ruck. And I think she has to develop maybe a quicker line, a Richie McCaw line and get there. What I don't want to have is that she's not there when the try is dotted down, and always goes to TMO. I would like referees to get in the right place, fall on your belly if you have to and get there and see it because then I trust you, your eyes more than the TMO having to see through the bodies that everyone jumps on now cynically on purpose to make sure you don't see it.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, and so it's held up. That's an interesting thing because we've often heard that criticism being levelled at Amy Perrett as well, that she's a yard or so behind the game. She arrives a little bit too late to see what's actually happening there. I don't know if that's necessarily true of Holly Davidson, but you know, that's not what we're here to talk about.

On Creating Chaos Against Leinster

Andy Capostagno: Something else, you mentioned the structured way that Leinster plays and Bordeaux exposed that Bordeaux's proponents of chaos, like Kennedy, Schoenberg hold them. And the Stormers last weekend was also a little bit of a chaos, sometimes good, sometimes not so good. How can they upset Leinster's rhythm by being more chaotic, I suppose, you know, with a less flashy, let's call it that, for lack of a better word, flyhalf?

Brenden Nel: That's true. But he's quick. There was a play a week ago where he went to the edge and he got there. And he kind of did a sort of a Sacha wave the ball around thing as well. It's funny because he, in some ways, he looks like a gangly Sam Prendergast type. But he's actually strongly made. I think he's got physical attributes. I think there's a way where he breaks the line. And I think he's comfortable in space, is what I'm saying. And there's players like Paul de Villiers, increasingly players like Ben-Jason Dixon, and we've always known Roos likes this too, open space for forwards is something Stormers crave. And they don't immediately think if they're a forward, they have to give it up. They'll look for another forward. I don't know if someone's measured Toks and Kunu's speed, but I don't know if there's a quicker prop. I mean, it's, it reminds me of young Ox Nché, just like begging for the ball in space. And then people going, wow, I didn't know you had those wheels, you know? He was an eight man before, man. That's why.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah. A second coming of Richard Bands.

Brenden Nel: I mean, it's unbelievable. And so I think, so what am I saying there is that when you want fracture and grey, and you want a lot of chaos, you need everyone to be able to handle, otherwise it doesn't really work very well. You know, Bordeaux works because everyone can handle, everyone's got, everyone's fine with the ball. You don't go, oh no, you know, it's, you know, Ben Tameifuna, it's, it's okay. He's a prop, but he can handle the ball. And you don't have to have a perfect pass right in the perfect breadbasket. You can get it anywhere and they'll catch it and go. So yes, that's one thing. The second thing is the kicking game. If the Stormers can manage that right and do it right, they're totally in with the shout. I mean, like it, to me, the upset's on if, if set pieces and kicking game are fine and then, you know, rip roaring dominant tackles, the kind of tackles that take your soul, you know, that's the preceding element for the jackal is strong tackle equals jackal. And you know, we had, we had Norman Laker on and what a man, what a fun guy to be around, but he preaches doubles. And and I think if you get, if you get low high tackles on Leinster, they will definitely spill the ball. They have weaknesses, you know, across the field and a part of it's because right now Leinster's in two minds and you cannot have this level of mum versus dad fighting before the kids are affected. And so something's happening there. I don't know what's going to play. That might be the best game of the year, for fuck's sake, but, but all that, or they might some of that internal strife might come out and that's where you need to have clear minded driving Stormers only one, only lost one match on the road, the season and the URC so that they can play what they can play on the road. That's not an issue. I actually think they like playing in Ireland. I think the rivalry between South African teams and Ireland has gotten spicy enough where it's not a derby, but it's like a cousin derby. It's a related derby.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, I know exactly that. There's a lot to talk about this brewing thing that's, you know, going on between South Africa and Ireland. I wanted to ask you about this away thing. The fact that it's away. Yes, the Stormers only that they won, they only lost one game overseas, like you said, but most of those games they won were early in the season, if I remember correctly. But other teams are not at their best, I suppose. Isn't that right?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, it's a weak stat. But it's a stat nonetheless, in the sense that it's not usual to win that well on the road. So it's something that you put into your locker room that you put that spirit in that we can win anywhere. I remember when Jake White said to me in the kitchen, you know, we're just talking and he said that it wasn't so much the win that day was the idea we can win anywhere, because we're going to have to win away. And it's the whole idea that we said from the beginning on this pod is, it's not always the underdog. So you've got to win. You've got to win the wrong way. Like we're the favourites, it's pressure. So I just think right now, the pressure game is interesting. Leinster is the reigning champions. And yet it's almost like it feels like unbearable pressure right now that it's a failure, the project has failed. Like you won the cup, you got to the final of the European, why is it so grim and dire? So maybe that's part of the Irish soul coming out on the melancholy, or, you know, shit talking yourself. But I mean, viva, let's go Aviva, keep shit talking yourself.

On the Stormers-Leinster Prediction

Andy Capostagno: All right, though, we've now set the scene for those Stormers actually being underdogs here because of this fantastic cap gap, like you call it, and you know, lots of international likes. So what do you think what's gonna happen? Who's gonna take this one?

Brenden Nel: So head heart, you know, the head says the home team, the reigning champion, with, you know, 800 caps or something compared to whatever, less than 100, they should win, no? But there's something brewing, there's something brewing. I'll tell you a little bit of story, it'll be quick. Once upon a time, a friend of mine and I wanted to go down this canyon. It's on the border of Mexico and Texas. You have to actually cross the border and convince someone by paying them 10 bucks to drive you over, not road, to the other side of the canyon. And we had the perfect raft that we had, you know, double sealed, we had wet bags, we had knives, we had food, we had everything you need to be in a river and not get destroyed. All that, ready to go, put us in the other side of the canyon, Class 4, three rapids through this 1,000 foot cliff on both sides. One cliff is Mexico, one cliff is Texas, which is why it's hard to build a wall, by the way. So and then we're shooting down these rapids, that's the plan. It's going to take about an hour to get through those rapids, long, cool, amazing, sun's never seen that canyon ever in the history of the earth. And then we're going to shoot into the Rio Grande at the end of that and just float gently on the border and be badasses. So the guy takes us there, we get into the river, and we're hoisting our little rubber raft onto the right passage. And it's stabbed by a tree, there's like a root coming out of the water and it just stabs the raft and in one second, all the air is gone. And along with it, much of our stuff is floating down and there's nothing to it, then we just have to get in the water, buttress ourself as much as possible and go down like human pinballs. Because we're far away from any road, the guy's gone, there's no way, we just come to shoot through the rapids and just get the shit beat out of us. That to me is what's going to happen this final. I think whatever plans you had, going to get stabbed by a root somewhere and it's whoever adapts and whoever is okay with the street fight, whoever's okay with just closing your eyes, putting your arms around your head and just going down the river and just believing in yourself and the people around you, that's who's going to win. I think this thing with Jacques and Leo is going to cause a bit of a two-camp situation, you know, the Jacques camp and the Leo camp and you're going to see that on the field. The teams are not going to play, Leinster's not going to play as a united team, there's factions, there are factions and I think we're going to see that. There might be boos.

Andy Capostagno: Boos?

Brenden Nel: Yeah, yeah, boos. I thought you meant booze, like drinking. If Leinster loses, they will be booed off the field. Not they, but the coaches. It reminds me of Eddie Jones, how he lost his job at the end. Twickenham man, you know, elbow patch, Cambridge, you know, soft loafer, Maserati driving, Twickenham man, you know, got enough passion in his passionless self to boo, gently, but still, it was a gentle boo. And that was the end of Eddie because Twickenham man rules, you know, those ticket prices. So, yeah, I think it's the same. Leinster's had dwindling attendance, they barely had, I don't know if they had five figures for the quarterfinal, but that's weird, you know, why would you not go and watch a rugby match a mile away from your house?

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, I suppose.

On the Bulls-Glasgow Matchup

Andy Capostagno: Right, let's talk about the Bulls. Same story, cap gap once again, Glasgow, a much wider spread, maybe not such big stars maybe in that team as the Bulls have, that's among some of the players, but still in terms of experience, a huge gap.

Brenden Nel: Yeah, it's interesting that gap though, like, so you put, I put them side by side on X, you can watch it there or you might be on the screen. Yeah. So you can see on the Stormers, Leinster, how stark it is. On the Bulls, Glasgow, it's different and different in some senses. If André and Willy stay healthy and they're on the field, then you have so many caps right where you want them, 10 and 15. So, you know, it's one of those issues where, you know, if you then drill down into those, which I have kind of done a little bit of backline, game drivers, you know, the spine of the team, you know, John Smith always talked about the spine of the team, sort of the 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 15, like right down the middle of the field, Bulls looking pretty good there. On the other hand, Glasgow has what I call cohesive caps, where you can just tell that these people have played with each other for a long, long time. They might not be household names, some of the Kyles, you know, Kyle Rowe, Kyle Steyn, but geez, they know where each other are. And the forward pack, again, it's sort of unheralded in some ways. But Jack Dempsey, when you look at his carry stats, for example, in the Six Nations and across all competitions, World Cup, he's never let his team down. He's a hard man to bring down. And the thing about knowing when you have a guy like Jack Dempsey, a strong carrying eight on your team, who doesn't think that Cameron Hanekom is better than him, you know, hasn't proved to Jack yet. So that's kind of a spicy matchup. You know, you can see why Glasgow comes in with swagger. They believe. On the other hand, I believe in these Bulls. I think these Bulls can pull an upset here that isn't as much of an upset as the Stormers over the Leinster would be. But it's an upset nonetheless, because it's in Scotland.

On the Bulls' Chances Against Glasgow

Brenden: I know it's not in Glasgow, but still, and because of the recent history. And I think part of that is new faces, freshness, and the coaching box. But with the players, I think there's a bit of revenge. Not mean, malicious, criminal revenge. But I think there's a bit of, we want to show these guys, we're a bit tired of it. You know, we're a hot fool the other way. So you know, I think the pack, the pack is nice for the Bulls. It's big. It's strong. I like the hookers that you can throw at them one, two. I like some of the young locks, very, very, very athletic group of players and for players like Ruan Nortjé, not wanting it to be the final one yet, you know, just one more time. Let's just go one more time. That's cool. The stories inside the stories is what I'm saying. Just like I think the Stormers could pull an upset here, I think the Bulls will probably pull an upset. I'd probably give them 55%.

Andy: Okay. Thank you very much. My sustained campaign to make you a Bull supporter is finally bearing fruit.

Brenden: I'm just calling it like it is. You know, we try to be fair when we think it's not working. And this is a reflection not only of the Bulls building an upward trend in the season, there's a crack showing in Glasgow, some of the cracks were in Cape Town. And I know it wasn't the full team. But any little notches in your confidence, little edges, you know, can really go sideways. And then just like my careening Canyon River ride, where I have no idea what was happening. That's what it can feel like in a game when the Bulls get on top of you. They have this sort of stampeding, no mercy, keep scoring kind of approach and freedom. Maybe that's what Jake White wasn't giving some of the players that it looks like Johan has. And I remember you bring up this quote that Dobbo had, I think you quizzed him and said, which one would you rather face? And he preferred to face the Jake Bulls than the Ackermann Bulls. So Ackermann Bulls is working in some ways. And I've said that it's because this is the best packs that Johan ever had in any of his coaching jobs. He's never had two packs like this, where you can just keep rolling them out. You know, you don't like that guy? How about Kubaš Wiese running down your throat, you know? Happy birthday Kubaš, by the way. So you know, it's scary. There are some really scary carriers. And it looks like to me also that Hanekom came back with a bit of a chip on his shoulder and an edge and something to prove. I really like how strong Elrigh Louw is upper body. Looks like Cam has gone to the same gym and they're really looking lean, but really heavy and powerful in contact. That's probably where Glasgow's weak point is. Just sheer, you know, let's pick five guys from each team to go out into the alley and fight. I'd pick the Bulls. So if they can make it that kind of game, I think Bulls win.

Where Glasgow Can Win

Brenden: Where they will not win. They will lose if it is kick space, chip space, counter scramble, defence, having to get back, back, back. I think the Bulls are a forward team, a rolling team, a steamroller team, and they got to be going forward. That's it.

Andy: So how would you turn them around? What would Glasgow do to be able to get that, you know, keep them turning around?

Brenden: Kick space, diagonals, seeing the field, almost like, you know, from vertical, almost like in some of the car cameras you have now, where you can see how to parallel park from above. You know, if Glasgow can find those little seams, they're really good at that. They're really good at running onto a bouncing ball. Sure, they defend really well, but, I mean, there's no defending some of the Bulls' attacks. There's no way to defend around the corners if what's coming at you is Cameron Hanekom and it's one-on-one, one-on-two. He's going to score. So it's too late. So I think Glasgow would have to sort of just stay on the attack and do it by keeping in the right areas of the field, maybe luring and tempting the Bulls into attacking from too deep. Because that's been one of the problems this season, is too much green light. You know, Vellick can overplay sometimes. Always has been able to do that sometimes. So happy for him, actually, that he's playing well and all that. But that's the one chink in his armour, is that if you give him too much space, like Finn Russell, he can sometimes refuse not to take it. And just kick it back, maybe, is the best opportunity. It's finals rugby. So you should be kicking the ball back, refusing to play in the wrong place. I think Glasgow, if they can make it into a chess game, should win. And if the Bulls keep on their steamroller, then they'll win.

On Finals Pressure and the Bulls' Record

Andy: That's actually quite an interesting thing. You talked about pressure, about Leinster being in so many finals and semi-finals and not making it. There's a team in this competition that's got an even worse record when it comes to finals. And that's the Bulls. I was at Loftus last week and I could see there was a bit of apprehension, that's the right word. You know, they weren't all overconfident and, you know, they're gonna trounce them or whatever. There's a bit of apprehension, apprehensiveness, is maybe the better word. You know, there's pressure there. And Johan said in his very first press conference when we introduced him, and he was asked what do you see as a successful season, he says I have to play in the final. Because we've always played in the final. If I don't play in the final, it will be a failure. I mean, we can't really realistically say that, you know, looking at the season that I've had, especially the second half. But there is pressure there. Now it's going to be away as well. We'll talk about the surface just now, but away from home, against Glasgow, a bit of a bogey team, beat us at Loftus, the Bulls, I mean, you know, how do they handle that?

Brenden: Yeah, I can see that. But I think it's just realism. So the Bulls are being realistic when they are not being winched, because they failed at that hurdle quite a few times. So the good news for both the Stormers and the Bulls is there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They can see, they can taste it. You know, a derby final. Wouldn't they both love that? Plenty of Bull supporters in Cape Town, like you once upon a time. And so it'll be a completely packed stadium, you know, for all the marbles. The template for both is clear as well. I mean, if there's any team that you know how to beat Leinster, it's well known. You can study it. I would submit the same is true for Glasgow. So there is a way to study every defeat Glasgow has been in, and find the common threads. And they have weaknesses around the ruck, post defence. You know, number one and number two, pillar post. If you just get your guys to take and to pick and go, and go, you know, there's a move that Pieter-Steph du Toit does a lot in test rugby, where right when you think it's going to be a phase, he picks and he goes. And it's almost, he almost always finds metres. I can see, I can imagine, in my dream's eye, Cameron doing that, Elrigh doing that, Kubaš Wiese doing that, over and over, Jeff, whoever it is, big carriers. Ruan Venter is not big, but he's really quick. Just keep coming, keep coming down that middle, almost bringing back the ghost of Pierre Spies. I think Glasgow won't be able to handle that. They don't have stoppers. They don't have true, stand in the gap, and I'll push you back, stop you guys. They're a scramble defence team, and they rely on numbers. So just keep making the numbers game. Get as many Glasgow guys on the floor and hold them there. If you have to hold them under the ruck, you know, just keep them down by any means necessary. I think there's going to be overlaps then, you know, classic Bulls rugby, middle, middle, middle, middle wide. And don't go wide too quickly.

On the Murrayfield Surface

Andy: Yeah, we talked about the surface just now. This is going to be at Murrayfield. Johan was quite elated to know that they're going to be playing there on a grass surface and not 4G, and that immediately takes one of Glasgow's weapons almost out of the equation. I'm not saying it's going to be neutralised, but mauls. They're very good at mauls. And Norman explained to us last week, Norman Laker, why it's such a tough task to defend against the maul on a 4G pitch, because you can't get studs in the ground, remember? Now it's on a grass pitch. That sort of takes, you know, the sting out of the one of Glasgow's biggest weapons, I suppose. And also it suits the Bulls. They're used to playing on grass, whereas Glasgow is used to playing on a 4G, that's a Bonne pitch and everything else. How much of an equaliser would that be, the fact that they're not playing on a 4G?

Brenden: Very helpful. All of our teams, they're not liking the 4G, the mixed hybrid turf, no matter what kind of varietal you have. And there are some turf fields that are really good at having, you know, just enough natural mixed in with the pellets that it feels good, like soft. But late in games, every player reports that you stick when you don't want to, you're a bit scared about your ankles, your knees. And then the forwards hate that because you're on a sled, you feel like you have roller skates on. And so you're getting pushed back and nowhere to go. I think the primary benefit to being in Murrayfield for the Bulls is in the set pieces, in the scrum. It's a big stadium, just like Loftus, so lineouts have a nice backdrop to throw against. When you're the hooker and you're looking at, you know, 6'10", picking up 6'10", and it's up in the sky, what you look at behind you is super important. The depth perception. And when it's just blue sky, it's actually quite difficult. It's like going back to school days. And these guys train all the time in Loftus. The other thing is scrums, when you get purchase in the scrum and it's real turf, it's easier to manipulate your opponent. Whereas on 4G, you get a lot of free kicks, a lot of attempted scrums, the referees give up on them. And I think also it doesn't feel like what you're used to as a prop. So I don't know if Wilco is going to be playing this week or not. I think he's fit. But I think he could really monster a guy like Patrick Schickerling in the mud and just get stuck in some part of the field where you kind of rip up the grass a little bit and then you just you can go to work, you know, when you're a big heavy. I think the Bulls superiority at scrum is also massive in this game. So you're looking at two games where how the referees see the scrums and how we compare the way that those two referees saw the same sort of scrum domination. It's going to be very interesting.

On Refereeing

Andy: Well, Andrew Brace is the referee for the Bulls game and I quite rate him. I like him. He's quite clear. He's quite fair. I don't think he gets influenced by the crowd so much. I think he's probably one of the better choices we could have had. Luckily it's not Andrea Piardi again.

Brenden: Yeah, so we don't talk about referees very much in this part and we do I think around finals because it does become more important. You know, in the end it's gonna it takes a lot to be a referee and make a call. It really is. It was a part I just watched with Ben O'Keeffe in it. It was very interesting to see him go through the psychology of reffing the French Bok game and then immediately England Bok. And obviously he couldn't do the New Zealand one. He's a New Zealander. But the idea of, you know, getting it right, getting it wrong, wanting the games, wanting it. So the decision process. I had a coffee with Angus Gardner right before the World Cup final and he was talking about how they decide that. You know, who gets the appointments. You take out the people that are connected with the countries. And then it's about the error rate. They actually go through. They watch the game and see on 50-50s and on the ones that they clearly got wrong. And they go through that kind of rating. So in a way, politics aside maybe, Andrew Brace has been seen as one of the best referees. One of the two best referees that wasn't, you know, eliminated because of affiliation. Hollie too. So it's interesting just to see their little world and how that works. What I like about Brace is his communication style. I don't think he coaches the players that much. Hollie too. I'm getting increasingly irritated by the ad hoc. It's not fair, you know, that you coach in some cases, but you don't coach in other cases. At what point do you just stay quiet and then whistle it? Stop talking about people, you know, stay off the ball. Thank you, you know, but then the next time you don't. I like Brace because he doesn't do that.

On South African Coaches in the Semi-Finals

Andy: Right. Our very, very first episode, and I'm closing the loop here, was about South Africans, record players and coaches making it big overseas. We had Johan van Graan in our first spot, I don't know if you remember. And as luck would have it, of the four teams playing in this weekend's semi-finals, four South African coaches involved in it. Obviously two South African teams have South African coaches, but you also have Jacques Nienaber at Leinster, and you've got Franco Smith at Glasgow. That says something. So, you know, how much does that play a role here in terms of, you know, they know each other, they know each other intimately. You talked about Franco, you know, maybe wanting to get the Bulls job, but there's something to prove there. Johan Ackermann has got a lot to prove. One of his biggest detractors that we know personally is still saying, no, he hasn't played against a proper team or a proper coach yet. So he hasn't proven himself. I mean, let's keep moving the goalposts people. And the same with Jacques Nienaber, under so much pressure, you know, even though it's project 2029, it's a year ahead of schedule maybe, and it's like, people inevitably calling for his head. And I just want to close off with this, I want to ask you this question. Are we getting too close to the teams? And is that maybe affecting our objectivity? Are we not being harsh enough or strict enough? Or, you know, holding their feet to the fire is one of the quotes I was given, to say that we're not doing that anymore.

On Objectivity and Bias

Brenden: That's a good question. I would feel bad to be, you know, cheeky, or say something that was kind of like funny, but, you know, a dig against many of the Stormers. That's fair. And I think it's important in life to know your biases. And I actually announce a lot of times when I'm doing predictions, like, don't trust me on the Stormers. I'm a fool, you know. Everything else I'm really good. But I don't think it was really that we've gotten that way. It was always that way. I've always been blue and white hooped, you know. I ooze it. I secrete it. It's, you know, it's my blood. So the same with you. As we've gotten closer, it's both. We've learned the good and the bad. So it's not just one way. We're just better informed. I think one... so one thing what's not possible anymore for either of us to do is to think that people don't know, or that it's not planning, or there's not intricate effort and design. We know that's true. So anyone who's making those complaints just doesn't know what level of commitment and work ethic is at place in both clubs. And I would imagine most clubs. But I think in particular these two clubs. Happy, hardworking, and with any group of 50 people, 100 people, there's going to be rivalries, going to be enmities and envies. This is normal. It's just like, that's just life. So no one's saying that it's not there. But a lot of the doomsday or nightmarish depictions of it, they're just false. And also some of the players that people look at and think that they're egotistical or something. You're going to trust me on this. It's not true. It takes a lot of swagger and confidence to be an elite sportsman at the highest level, and you have to believe in yourself. But there's a lot of cartoonish depictions of people that suit their narrative. And I haven't found those to be true.

Final Score Predictions

Brenden Nel: In fact, I've been pleasantly surprised by the humility, hard work, curiosity, and intelligence.

Andy Capostagno: Yes.

Brenden Nel: Like, off the charts.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, that's the big thing that I also picked up from getting to know these players and coaches, both Stormers and Bulls and everybody else I suppose. And I've said it now many times, and I'll say it again, it's how intelligent they are. These are not stupid people. They think about things. So when people start making accusations, I want to climb the walls. And the other thing is, I specifically get a little bit tetchy when we start being accused of this kind of a thing. Because people stand on the outside, like black people stand on the outside of the rugby teams, and they make comments about what we do and what we think without knowing what's going on on our channel, for example. That's the same thing with the rugby team. When you get inside something, you understand it better. And it changes your perspective a little bit. It doesn't change your objectivity. But it changes your perspective to a degree, I suppose.

Brenden Nel: Yeah, that's it. Right, we never made that last prediction for the Bulls. Sorry, I got a bit sidetracked there. I actually think it's going to be a lower scoring game than both of these teams have had. Just, you know, finals nerves, that extra effort on defence, corner flagging, scrambling. I'm kind of feeling like a 24-22 Bulls win.

Andy Capostagno: And then over on the other side, I think it's the same. It's going to be a grim struggle. And I think we eat their hearts out. I think we rip out the remaining joy from Leinster. Fuck them up on their field. And we have a Bulls-Stormers derby for the final. Let's go. A proper one.

Brenden Nel: You know, it's full circle again. Like, that was the very first final as well, if I remember correctly. So, there we go.

Andy Capostagno: Exactly.

Brenden Nel: Awesome, man. What a lekker pod this was. I enjoyed it. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Good anniversary pod, I suppose.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah. Cheers.

Brenden Nel: This is the Lekker Rugby Pod. Only on Megaphone Rugby.