How Welsh Scrums Made Brok Harris — and Why That's Now the Stormers' Weapon

On Sazi Sandi's Journey from Grahamstown to the Stormers

Harry Jones: And this man is the big beating heart of the locker room. He sings, he dances, he's reached his 50th cap. He dummied a tight head to score a try this year. He's the only man to make Andre Hugo Fentzer smile during a scrum. The Buffalo City boss, the big smoke, Sazi Sandi. He's probably the most explosive prop in South Africa, maybe in the world. But it's hard to think when your neck's getting corkscrewed, Sazi. How do you maintain your thought process when you kind of want to cry, go into a foetal position?

Sazi Sandi: Takes practice, I'll tell you that. Yeah, and be greedy. Don't say, there'll be another time. Like, this is it.

Harry Jones: This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby. Hello again, Lekker Rugby Pod followers and listeners. We have this wonderful series going where I drive Envy a crazy with Stormer after Stormer after Stormer after Stormer. And today is not an exception. It's the Coach and a Player series. And this week, we're having a guy, a coach, who also played about 450 matches, which means he's scrummed at about 3,531 scrums at his top level. Almost 2,000 of those scrums were in Wales. So there's actually a dragon. Actually, it's a dinosaur name for him in Wales. It's called the brachiosaurus. So basically, he goes both ways in a rugby sense, a swing prop. If you piled each scrum that he's been in on top of each other, it would almost reach the moon. And it would generate about 580 penalties. Now he teaches the Stormer scrum to be the best scrum in the URC. His name is Brok Harris. How's it, Brok?

Brok Harris: How's it, Harry? Yeah, thanks for the invite. Good to be here.

Harry Jones: Yeah, I know you're really close right now to where you used to live in Wales, getting ready for the final round. And your partner in crime this week is the pride of St. Andrew's College, the most famous rugby player ever to come from there. Sorry, Nick Mallett. It's not you. Head boy, like all props in the Stormers are required to be nowadays. Hookers or not, Andre Hugo Fentzer is the opposite of a head boy, whatever that's called. A foot boy, maybe. This man is the big beating heart of the locker room. He sings. He dances. He's reached his 50th cap. He dummied a tight head to score a try this year. He's the only man to make Andre Hugo Fentzer smile during a scrum. The Buffalo City boss, the big smoke, Sazi Sandi. How's it, Sazi?

Sazi Sandi: How's it, guys? Happy to be here. Very happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm not the most famous St. Andrew's guy. Definitely you start with Nick Mallett and Ryan Kankowski, and then you can go with me. But happy to be here.

Harry Jones: I guess it's kind of daunting when you go into St. Andrew's. The guy next to you might be the son of the Standard Bank CEO. It's quite a posh school. So talk to me about your journey. It's probably the thing I don't know the most about. Stormers do this great thing. When I was with you in PE, there was this, you know, where I'm from. And it's family. It's roots. So how did this happen? How did a guy like you become a tight head prop at the Stormers from where you came?

Sazi Sandi: So obviously I was born in East London, raised in Grahamstown, did my schooling in St. Andrew's. And I think that's where the love for scrumming started. It was always a prop. I never played any other position. So from about grade three, when you start scrumming, you know, I was a loosehead, but I was quite heavy when I was 14. I was about 115 kgs. And my coach told me, listen, yeah, I was quite a porky kid. My coach was like, listen, hold yourself. I was like, listen to me, you're a tight head. I wasn't very happy about that. But, you know, in hindsight over the years, I've had a few good coaches at school, Alan Miles, Laurence Christie. They helped me a lot in my development, you know, and I became very like scrum crazy. Heading out of school, then got to the Stormers, had guys like Shimmy, what's his name? Peter De Villiers as well, Ace in the 20s, Joe van Niekerk at the Institute, coming up to having Brok. So I've got, luckily I've had really good coaches along the way, you know, and it's kind of helped me to get to this point and even more scrum crazy as the more I've learnt over the years. So that's kind of been the journey, scrum wise and rugby wise. Played at Maritzburg, did all my age group levels after school at Western Province. And yeah, it's actually, it's been a blessing, you know, to be here.

On the Psychology and Process of Scrumming

Harry Jones: Yeah, so guys, a scrum is an interesting place. In some ways, it's a lonely place. It can be, especially for a tight head. You're basically got, you know, you've got faces on both sides of you, you're feeling whiskers and ears, people are grabbing you in unmentionables and you still have to go through a process. And there's a bind, there's a lean, there's an extension. There's sometimes you're in trouble and you've got to work your way out. Brok, you've been in more scrums maybe than any other human being. How do you teach that? The mentals, the psychology of the scrum, which is just totally different than any other contest on the field because your opponent and you are stuck together a little bit in a bit of a, you know, a dance.

Brok Harris: Yeah, Harry, I think it's basically a balancing act is doing that experience. It comes by doing it actually, doing it quite a lot. So, and putting guys in different scenarios. So yeah, whatever the opposition will bring to the table, we try and simulate that as well. But yeah, there's no substitute for doing it and experiencing it on a regular basis, I reckon. Yeah, so you can obviously technically show videos and stuff, but the big thing is you need to have time on task, that I call it. Yeah, so get the guys in, let them do it, let them experience different scenarios and yeah, hopefully it works out. And as you go on and they get older and more experienced, like Sazi, when I got here, we were struggling with binding this stuff and overextended because it's so explosive. Little bit of work-ons and yeah, now he doesn't have any resets anymore, except if the loosehead can't handle the pressure.

Harry Jones: Yeah, the huge story obviously this year is that you have harvested like 58 something penalties on your scrum, which is a generator, it's a power generator. It's literally like having power all the time for easy exits, easy entries, shots at goal, that probably translates to about 60 points right there and then, it costs a card generator for the other side and it's a discourager, Sazi, for the other team. Once you know they don't want to scrum with you, you're wetting your lips, aren't you?

Sazi Sandi: 100%, you always want to get into a game and present the right pictures, but also assert a level of dominance where you get the other team kind of doubting and getting out of their system. And once you've got a team there, you want to just keep your foot on the throat and just keep applying pressure because if the scrum is going well, it makes everything else easier for the rest of the team, moving forward, even if it's not in your ball.

On the Risk-Reward of Scrum Dominance

Harry Jones: It's a plus minus, Brok, you obviously, my analogy is tennis. If I'm going for aces on my first serve every single time, then I'm going to have more faults, so then I'm going to have my second serve as well, which means I'm probably going to have a few more offences against me, you know? So that huge number, 58, and then there's the counter number. It's a risk reward because you're going for it, therefore there's going to be calls made. There's no other scrum, though, in world rugby right now doing it like you're doing. Was that something you sort of consciously decided we have to go for it, we're a scrum culture, you know, we're sort of the epicentre of scrums, and we're going to just own it? Because there's a risk there sometimes on the luxury calls.

Brok Harris: Yeah, yeah, I think that's the main aim is to get the buy-in, and it's like you say, it can be a lonely place for a prop, but we speak about all eight together, buy-in from the whole back five, connecting with your front row, and yeah, we've got that culture of we're going to go for it, and we all do our best to show the ref the cleanest picture as we can, but sometimes we get it wrong, and sometimes there's a 50-50 call that doesn't go our way, unfortunately, and we don't dwell on it too much, like the previous question is, we learn from that and try and fix it on the go, and not come in on Monday and say, listen, we should have done that, should have done that. We try and problem-solve in the game already, half-time, we'll make new plans if something happens, but if it goes well, we just keep with that mindset of applying that pressure and trying to create that dominance for us.

Harry Jones: Sazi, your scrum actually assembles quicker. I'm watching it, and you're ready. You know, you're ready to scrum. It's almost old school. Like, it's not restarting because of Stormers. It's, you guys are ready. You know, the bind, the shift, the little wiggle, and you're also having incredible force behind you from locks and from flanks. Do you ever turn around and say to BJ, stop it, man, you're pushing too hard, you're gonna crumple me?

Sazi Sandi: No, no, I never discourage the guys behind me because we often say as props, you know, we're so fortunate to have a back five that is as excited as us to scrum. You know, that gives you the most confidence going into scrum knowing that whenever I go down, I've got my guys with me and they will be with me the whole way. And it kind of takes away a big factor in your thought process because all you know you're thinking is, I must do my job, what is my process? And what is the things that I need to do in this 30 seconds that will make this scrum work? Because I know the guy next to me, behind me, and at the furthest of the back, the eighth guard, is gonna do his role to make sure this machine works. So, yeah, to be honest, like we're blessed to be in this kind of scrum culture, you know, like a lot of people would die to be in a scrum culture like this, because flip it, it's awesome, especially after you get a penalty, you see how excited your back line gets because they know exactly how much effort we put into it and how much we actually enjoy doing it, you know, so yeah.

Harry Jones: You see in time after time, it's when the back line has the most chirp is when a scrum penalty, it had nothing to do with it, they're all running in and going crazy, jumping on you. Obviously, it's interesting because in a lot of sports, you have to calm down your heart rate because you have to think in a scrum. A scrum is the ultimate chess game in rugby. And you just, you know, you're a carrying prop and you're good in open field. All the props in Stormers are handlers. We saw Neethling's silky handling in that three, one, two, whatever try, front row try. I'm sure he's still talking about it. But I mean, you have to then get ready for a scrum where it's really technical. Brok, how do you teach your guys? And I mean, your guys are making big strides. You know, we just saw Zach Neethling, Paul de Villiers is the honorary front row, I think now, getting into the alignment camp. How do you teach that, you know, sort of to get calm, almost like a kicker taking a little, a few minutes before, a few seconds before they kick the ball?

Brok Harris: Yeah, I think it comes down to training, Harry. Yeah, we train it quite a bit under fatigue. Just two scrums will sometimes go into a, more defence into a scrum. So in that transition between the two, you need to find your clarity of mind and the connections, we speak about connections. So, and that's a couple of seconds you need to just flip the switch again and say, listen, I've taken a couple of rests, next scrum, what is our process? Go through that process and then, yeah, hopefully the outcome is positive.

On Presenting the Right Pictures to Referees

Harry Jones: I want to ask you a silly question, but you talk about pictures and this is part of your preparation, your process you just talked about. What does pictures mean? You say, I want to show pictures. What does that mean? I mean, I'm sitting on the outside and I have, explain that to me, please.

Brok Harris: Yeah, so what pictures mean is, so we're conscious of the refs hasn't been in a scrum ever, usually traditionally back lump players that becomes refs. And if they look from the outside, they don't want to see any hips lower than your chest or chest lower than your hips. So we call it just chest parallel to the ground and a picture of dominance. So we focus on our speed, try to get in our best scrum position as you, if they take a ruler, they see that nice scrum position. The 50, well, we believe the 50-50s will go our way rather than to the opposition if we're in that positive picture. And then obviously if it's not, then we'll try and have just a conversation with the ref and ask him, listen, what picture do you want to see? Because we don't want to give away penalties or free kicks. So yeah, that clear picture of nobody's hitting down or upwards, nice and parallel to get into the contest.

Harry Jones: Yeah, once you've earned that reputation, you're getting calls sometimes on the 50-50 because people think, oh, it's a Stormers scrum, they're dominant, but you had to earn it. But there's so many parts of that. Some referees look at a different part of the picture, the weight, the balance, the flex, the bind, the recovery, the angles. Frans Malherbe said that he actually starts a conversation during the match early on. And he's very polite. So if they shut him down, he doesn't care. If they keep going, then he gets information. So Sazi, how much of that communication that comes is going on? Refs seem to start that conversation nowadays. They literally come talk to the, they get the front rows together and they have a chat. Do you engage at that point or are you a quiet scrummager?

Sazi Sandi: It just depends. Often before a game, we designate a guy who will speak to the ref. You don't want to have too many guys talking to the ref. And in the case of last weekend, it was Andre who would communicate to the ref and then he would filter that information through us. So in that instance, as well, before the game, the ref will tell us what he wants to see. So we have a guideline of, okay, the ref doesn't want one side going forward. He wants both sides going forward at the same time. And that's the picture he wants to see, control, et cetera, et cetera. So I take that information and I apply it as best as I can. And whatever happens in the game, Andre will then ask me or ask the loosehead on set day and then he'll relay it to the ref or if he feels like he's got the picture, he'll talk and come to us and then we kind of just go from there. But I often just stick to my job and just listen.

On Resilience and Learning from Adversity

Harry Jones: I went to look at the motto of your school, your grade school, St. Andrews in Grahamstown and it's Nec Aspera Terrent, which is difficulties do not dismay us. What a resilient motto that is. Talk to me about that. In a scrum, it's not always gonna go your way. You're gonna get overextended. You're gonna slip. Sometimes you're gonna pancake. And the forces on you, when that happens, it's gotta be unbelievable.

Sazi Sandi: Yeah, that motto has actually been something I've carried my whole life since I started St. Andrews. And it's proved correct as time has gone on. As I said, we're fortunate to have a scrum culture that we have as props. And with Brockie and Shumi, we all just kind of whatever pictures we get or struggles we have, we talk, we share notes, so that by the time we get to the field, you have this like notebook in your head. When you feel this, often I go to Brockie and I'm like, okay, I'm thinking this, I'm thinking that. He'd be like, okay, maybe not that way, maybe this way. And then from there, you start cutting out the stuff that you're actually overthinking and keep it in a simple kind of process. So if this happens and I instantly know, okay, Sazi, your feet are too far back or you're left with this or your connection here. And that's how it kind of just goes on. So if something goes wrong, when I was younger, I think the world is ending. But now that I'm older and a bit more experienced, I kind of slowed down. I'm like, oh, flip, don't worry. I kind of have a little smile because I know exactly what to do the next time. And more often than not, it works out.

Harry Jones: It's interesting, in the early part of my life, it felt like everything was coming easily, all the accolades, recognition, both in athletics and sports and rugby, but also in life. Then I hit a rough patch in my life. And Brok, I don't know if you've ever done that, but you learn a lot from failure. You learn a lot from being exposed. And sometimes you go, oh, and then that's horrible. But then I think later, now what I think is, give me some, give me some failure, give me some adversity. Because I think that's when I learn the best. Do you find that, I mean, now you're not doing, you're teaching. It's almost like they listen closer to you when they got moved.

Brok Harris: Yeah, 100%, yeah. So I, as a player, also went through it, especially that transition period from Stormers to Dragons, different scrum culture, different philosophies, all that stuff. Yeah, so that first couple of months for me was a massive learning curve of how to be a tight head, actually. That's, I say always, that's probably where I learned.

Harry Jones: Is that when you switched, when you went to Newport?

Brok Harris: Yes, yes, yeah. So that was completely different philosophy and all that stuff. And I got, yeah, I got scrummed in training. I was like, yes, yeah. But, and now I know what, and it's good to be challenged in that sort of way. And now I know if a tight head at training goes through the same that I went through, there's some boxes you need to tick. Yeah, and then I'll spend time with them and say, listen, this and that. And yeah, and like I say, it comes by time on task. So yeah, and fair play to the boys. They're willing to listen and willing to try it. And I'm not a guy that will say, you must do it. It's a guy, try it. If it works for you, let's keep it. If it's not working, we'll find a different way of getting to the end product.

On the Difference Between Welsh and South African Scrum Philosophy

Harry Jones: I want to ask you, I spent some time with the Bulls. I had to bring a Bulls angle here. I was looking for one desperately and I found it. Spoke to Leonard Krier and he spent many years at Scarlets. So what's the difference between the Wales or Welsh scrumming culture compared to South Africa in general? Because you both had a big part of your careers you spent there.

Brok Harris: Yeah, so basically in Super Rugby, it was, they use the scrum just to get the game started again. Because of the conditions, we want to play expansive game, but scrums was between eight and 12 seconds. So you can survive in on the angle, traditionally the tight, it's just heavy in. And then when I got here, the scrums was between 15 and 20 seconds. So then you can't survive there if you're not heavy enough. So you needed to learn how to stay square. Otherwise you end up on top of your locks. So that was a massive thing and how to do it because everybody says you want the right shoulder, but yeah, you need to be square. And how are you going to get that angle to get your right shoulder and all that. So yeah, it was a case of their mindset here was we're going to scrum for penalties. In Super Rugby was like, sometimes you go for one or two, but the majority of the time we were going to have high ball and play intensity. Yeah, so that was basically the difference between Northern and Southern hemisphere scrum mindset.

Harry Jones: It's quite welcome now that we play rugby up North because it's something that you learned that wouldn't have worked otherwise. I mean, it's a good move.

Brok Harris: Exactly. So yeah, no, it's a, it's good. And yeah, and they buy into it. And yeah, that's, I call it fool's gold. So you go into that nice place, it's comfortable there for two or three seconds, but yeah, you can't, you can't survive there.

Harry Jones: Yeah, it sort of plays into our hands. That being said, and it's going to sound very strange for me to talk about an aspect where you're on top of the log in scrums, but I almost think they raised the bar in the two years now of what they need to see, the picture they need to see before they'll ping. There's even a rise to me of, if you have the ball under the locks feet and you're going forward and it's not stationary, I don't know why the refs can say to use it. You are using it. You're using it to get a scrum penalty. You could technically scrum all the way, the whole pitch and score a pushover try. You know, do you feel like there's a bit of a move? I know there was a shape of the game conference and we won that debate for today, but this, the idea that it's not rugby until the ball is being phase played compared to, you know, a maul drive, a set piece game, which, you know, plays up to our strengths.

Brok Harris: Yeah, I think rugby, without the set piece, then we can go to rugby league. So I think it's still an important part of it and that's why people watch it. And especially the New Zealanders, the English, France, they still want to have that physical confrontation of scrums being dominant. So, and that's where we pride ourselves as South Africans, Bulls, Sharks, us, Lions, pretty dominant set piece. Yeah, so that's a big part of rugby union. So you can't hide away from it. But in saying that, people also want to see this nice, expansive game. So yeah, we try to give them a bit of both, but yeah, sometimes it just doesn't work out.

On Carrying and Open Play

Harry Jones: Yeah, you always a carrying prop, you know, mobile. Sazi, I went back and I actually went on your Instagram and I watched a try, sort of a screenshot by screenshot that you scored and you dummied your opposite tight head, you know, a little swivel hip there. You broke the tackle of a lock and then you had to dodge Evan Roos, who was getting in the way. I think he was trying to block for you or something, but you shoved him away and then you scored a no TMO try. Obviously you're comfortable with the ball in hand. Talk to me about that. Like how many times do you get to carry? Are you always offering yourself to me and saying, hey, me, me, me, look at me?

Sazi Sandi: Yeah, look, to be honest, I always want to carry. You know, I want to get as close to the ball as much as possible, whether it be on attack or defence. I just think sometimes it just works out differently. Often in a team environment, on a team game, you can't be selfish and try and get all of the carries. You know, you've got to work in system and you've got to be willing to do the dirty work as well. So yeah, I avail myself as much as possible, but I'm just as happy to hit a ruck or to tackle someone. You know what I mean? So yeah, I've always been comfortable with the ball since school days, you know, so it's not really something that I ran away from.

Harry Jones: Yeah, Stormers props. So you're getting a lot of highlights nowadays, we see Neethling running an open field last week, and telling people to get out of the way. Obviously, your primary job, obviously, is set piece, you're lifting, you're lifting on restart, you're lifting in lineouts, and you're scrumming and you're doing the maul drive. Brok, do you actually get involved in the maul drives? Or is that a different portfolio? How does that work?

Brok Harris: Yeah, no, that's I stay in my lane. Yeah, we obviously bump ideas from each other. But Rito, he's focused on all the mauls and setting up and systems and all that stuff. But yeah, we will speak during the week. And I must say that's also a nice thing between the coaches is there's no egos and he's asking this and I'm suggesting and he's like, yeah, then maybe we must do it that way or different ways. So yeah, I'm solely focused on scrums, but obviously, give my input when when asked.

On Being Back in Wales

Harry Jones: You're in your home sort of home patch this week. Is everyone asking you for recommendations on what to eat, where to go? And are you recognised on the street? In that part of Wales?

Brok Harris: No, that's one thing. Not so popular here than back home. Yeah, well, it's ever since I've left. So there's a couple of fans. But yeah, the boys has been asking me and yes, we we went out on Saturday. Cardiff was quite busy because the sun was out. So then everybody's out and about. So Saturday was a good, good day. And we also have had a nice dinner last night in a proper restaurant that we used to go to our Christmas dinners at. So yeah, has special memories of being back in Cardiff.

On Stats and Tackling

Harry Jones: Sazi, I always go to stats when talking to players. I just wanted to alert you to one of your great stats is that you have only made one bad pass the whole season. So I'm actually thinking that you should play fullback. I'm promoting big smoke at fullback from now on.

Sazi Sandi: That's probably out of three passes the whole season.

Harry Jones: Fair. No, there was nine. Okay, there was nine total. So you're going at 90%. All the also the URC as we call it the URC has funny stats sometimes. And one one thing that's interesting is you almost almost all of your tackles are dominant. You know, there's a definition of dominant I get they get that that's subjective. But is that something you pride yourself to is unloading bringing the big smoke?

Sazi Sandi: Yeah, it is. It's something that I really enjoy, you know, getting stuck into people, you know, it's, it's one of them. It's been one of my superpowers since I was young. And over the years, you know, sometimes you take a little dip and you get back. And more so especially this year, just been trying to get back into, you know, getting the right positions to kind of hit people, you know, that's where I really enjoy my game is hitting people and making them feel that I'm there. And, you know, it also gives your teammates a boost as well, when they see that, you know, the teammate hitting someone that you kind of also want to get stuck in. So yeah, something I've really enjoyed over the years.

On the Technical Process of Tight Head Scrumming

Harry Jones: Yeah, and it's, it's so related to your primary job at scrum, right? There's still a hit there. There's timing, there's a loading process, and so forth. The timing for the tight head is different from a loosehead, right? I mean, it's very difficult the sequencing at scrum, you know, you got the hooker trying to get his head into your chest, you got the loosehead trying to bind you where you don't want him to bind you. Talk us through that sort of process of how you get set for that hit.

Sazi Sandi: First, I let my loosehead bind first, then I'll get my bind. And then I make sure that I'm not behind my hooker, I present forward to make sure that all our hips are in line. And that I'm not, you know, behind my loosehead as well, you know, just the way we want to scrum. And then from there, I make sure that my feet are in a good position, so that when I do hit, I'm not overextended in our form, or I'm not in a bad position where I can't apply pressure, you know, almost being like a 90 degree, you know, a bit more or less kind of vibe where how you feel comfortable, but I feel more comfortable at 90 from the bind.

On Scrum Preparation and Technique

Brok Harris: Bind wise, I try to get just a good, solid bind to make sure that when the pressure comes from the back, that there's no pre-engagement, and give myself enough space so that I can really move across the line once the referee calls set. And just from all those little things, from the connection to the hooker to my back five, making sure my lock comes in, and his head is comfortable as well, because if he's not comfortable in the sense of it's not in properly, then he's not going to give me the best pressure that the team needs. And then from there, you know, then I just kind of get into the rest of the process as the pack of eight. So that's my kind of process before scrum.

Andy Capostagno: Sazi, when we started talking Brok dropped a little nugget there, he said you're too explosive. What does that mean?

Sazi Sandi: Well, I'll answer that. He is probably the most explosive prop in South Africa, maybe in the world. So that's saying if he's got this much space, you'll win it every time. And that was something when we started, that was actually his big downfall because he couldn't control that because of his quickness or his speed, the loosehead was always under pressure, can't take the pressure and then he dropped it. So yeah, like you said, now his feet just a little bit more underneath him and he's got that control now over his explosive speed.

Andy Capostagno: What makes him explosive? Is it his legs? Or was it his technique? Or what is it?

Brok Harris: I think it's my leg strength. At school, I did a lot of CrossFit stuff, power lifting. You know, I can't tell you when and when it started. But I know at school, my one of my coaches put me in the gym early, I told you I was like 115 kgs at 13 years old. So he, you know, in grade eight, he's not allowed to be in the gym, but they used to take me to the gym, get on the bike, do some box jumps and all that stuff. And I fell in love with the gym, especially more like power lifting. And I think it just stems from the power lifting I did at school and the squatting. I used to love squatting and hated upper body. And I think it kind of just stems from there. And also my family has a bit of explosive quick genes. My brothers were both quite fast over 100 metres at school. So a bit of genetics and also some work behind it as well.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, if you can have explosion and dynamism at 125 kgs, it's kind of a nightmare.

The Chess Match Within the Scrum

Brenden Nel: Brok, is your point on that? Because I once upon a time one day I scrummed against Ox Nché and he took me through why he killed me. And he said, it's because I let the tighthead do something. I'm responding. It's almost like a conversation. And so if you overextend or you go too quick, or you're too explosive, that's actually up Ox's alley, because now he can play with his feet, because his strength, his superpower is feet. So it's a game within a game, isn't it? It's so fascinating. And I wish that commentators would expose that real time in games, just like NFL does online on scrimmage stuff, because it's fascinating. It's the little nuances.

Brok Harris: It's interesting. So if you obviously, Ox is one of the world's best looseheads. So yeah, there's a different kettle of fish when you scrum against him. And you must obviously be on your A game. And but yeah, he's got the ability to in the scrum, identify that. And that's the experience part of in the scrum, not after the scrum, already seeing this pressure, I need to do this to get the reward. So and that's why he's so good.

Brenden Nel: But it's hard to think when you're next getting corkscrewed. So how do you, how do you maintain your thought process when, you know, when you, you kind of want to cry, go into a foetal position?

Brok Harris: It takes practice. I'll tell you that it takes, you know, the more times you get scrummed, the more you start, you know, forcing yourself to think in the moment and to think while things are happening, you know, almost to multitask. I know they say, men aren't famous for multitasking. But in that, in that sense, you are multitasking, you know, live, you know, so yeah, you just kind of forced to do it after some time.

On the Changing Role of Scrums

Brenden Nel: Once upon a time, Brok, even, you know, before you played, you know, in the old days, there were 25 scrums, 30 scrums a game, just normally, and I literally can look at the World Cups, and every four years, there's less. At the same time, more percentage were penalised, which sort of made up for the lack of scrums. It's still a dispositive thing in the game, you can still lose a game because if you're a scrum, because you would leak penalties. You had the interesting, a week ago, you had no put-ins, there's no Stormers feeds at a scrum. I mean, when has that ever happened? Has it ever happened to you in your career?

Brok Harris: Never, no. Over my whole career, I cannot recall one instance where we didn't have a scrum on our own ball. So yeah, that was that was really weird. I can't really explain it. And yeah, we had three advantages. But yeah, we obviously played because of who we are. So we we didn't get that scrum on our ball. It was very strange.

Andy Capostagno: Is that a trend? We saw the same thing with the Bulls against, what was it now? Scarlets, I think, that they only had one or two scrums on their own put-in as well. Are they trying to neutralise the strength of the Bulls and the Stormers in scrums, maybe?

Brok Harris: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think obviously, they know we've got a good scrum and the Bulls. So yeah, I think there's definitely something they'll mention in a week and say, listen, boys, we need to be squeaky clean. We can't afford to give away silly knock-ons, unforced errors, because the chances of them getting penalties will be big. So yeah, I think it's probably a massive focus point for them, not trying to engage in set piece battle.

Brenden Nel: I've got a secret plan, Brok, don't worry about it. I'm going to talk to Sacha and if you can kick the ball on someone's hand to make them do a knock-on, you know, that's the set play. We insist on scrums.

On Being a Professional Rugby Player

Andy Capostagno: Sazi, it's difficult to be a professional rugby player. You've got a lot of things pulling you one way or the other. Now you're what, 27 years old or so? What would 27-year-old Sazi tell 17-year-old Sazi about this business? And what would you do differently, I guess?

Sazi Sandi: I'd probably tell a younger me to enjoy the process of it and not kind of rush and wish away time. It sounds a bit vague, but I mean, in the sense of, you know, when you're young, you're not really, because you recover so quickly, you're not really focused on your body, because you just, everything just happens quickly. You know, you can play on a Saturday and Monday, you're fresh, you run and you get on the Monday and all the guys are like, oh, just slow down, like, just relax. It's only Monday, you know, but I'm like, just ready to go. But now, when I've gotten older, I've found the joy and, you know, after training day, I hit the gym, I do my recovery process, I do my rehab, ice bath, treatment, you know, and, you know, sometimes get home at like six o'clock or five o'clock, but I enjoy that. And that has proven very good for me this season, especially where I've been available for the whole season, whereas when I was younger, you know, halfway through the season, I've got some sort of a niggle, soft tissue or something like that. And it's also, you know, balancing your life outside of rugby, you know, to kind of give you the balance mentally, you know, to be able to switch off, but also give you enough time to switch off, to be back and give your best at rugby and not stretch yourself too thin with too many things. And kind of having that balanced life having that balanced lifestyle, whether it be at home playing Xbox or reading a book or doing some studies, or going to church, you know, do everything that will fill your cup up because that will give you the best possibility of enjoying the process, not necessarily success, but the process over time will get you that. But you know, I would tell a younger me to just slow down, enjoy the process, do all the things that will benefit you as a human being, then will fill into your rugby life. And things will often become slower in that case, because, you know, when you have a good process, often you're not overthinking as much as you would, if everything is disorganised, you know, so I'll kind of tell my 21-year-old self that.

Brenden Nel: That's such a wonderful, almost an essay. So now I see why you're a head boy.

On the Transition from Player to Coach

Brenden Nel: So Brok, it's different to do than to teach. It's famously true that very few of the best, best players become great coaches. Most of the time coaches are drawn, I mean, you know, Rassie is an exception. But most of the top coaches are not superstars as players. And they had to think their way through it, they had to explain things. What's that transition like been for you? I mean, in some ways, I see, I've always watched you as a player thought it was cool, that in some ways, and don't take this the wrong way, but you were every man, you were, you were a guy out there that we could identify with. And here you were with this long career, you know, you weren't some, you know, Jonah Lomu, or, you know, do one fundamental sort of thing. You just you just did it with your with with thinking it through and being tough. What's it like now to explain that? How do you explain how to be tough? How do you explain how to think it through? You know, it's different than doing it.

Brok Harris: Yeah, no, obviously, I've always wanted to be on the coaching side of it. But yeah, it is like you said, it's not sometimes not very easy. But I think with this group, obviously, I played with a lot of them. And the coaching side of it, when I say something, it's not I'm not thumb-sucking it, I think it comes from a good intentions, the try, obviously, the honesty, the experience. So yeah, I think that's probably the thing. And I tried to keep it light-hearted, if you call it, but also process driven. So we've got our processes. And we'll also always revert back to that, if something happens. So I think that's probably the key thing is to give these guys boxes to tick when we in game situation. And yeah, that's, that's just something I tend to do, or had to do. As a player, I needed to have boxes because I couldn't be disorganised. So I had scrums, this lineouts, this small, small boxes that I needed to tick every time. So yeah, I tried to obviously get that across to these players. So yeah, and it's the buying was, is actually amazing.

Brenden Nel: It's got to be short and sharp, right? In the in the heat of the moment. In preseason, you can have these long, you know, explanations. But in the end, it's got to be one or two words to to be able to communicate in the moment, isn't it?

Brok Harris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not big long messages. You can't. Yeah. So a couple of stuff. It's short bullet point stuff. There we go. And then Monday, it's the biggest stuff, then you go into more detail.

The Emotion of Coaching

Brenden Nel: You were always a guy that could soak a lot of pressure up. Brok, you were always a guy that could make the other guy lose his head, you know, but you wouldn't. But I saw you in a coaching box this season. And there's one crucial scrum where it just was roller skates. I mean, obliteration. And you just big fist punch, you know, which I've called the Brok. And, and I saw more emotion coming out of you. Is it kind of weird? You suffer more as a coach, don't you? Like if they're out there, you're wanting them to do something, you know, it's different.

Brok Harris: Yeah, and that's the thing. So you can do as much coaching, but you don't have any control. And and that's the sad part of not playing is like you give the control to the eight or to the yeah, to the pack that's playing on the weekend. And, and if it comes off, then yeah, I'm not a guy that's massive on emotions. And you can't be there the whole time. But pressure situations, big moment, we get the penalty. Yeah, then then I'll show a bit of emotion.

Brenden Nel: So it's, there's guys you want to play for. It's a personal business. There's a trust between a player and a coach. It strikes me I wouldn't want to make I wouldn't want to disappoint Brok. You know, I don't want to come back and have him be disappointed in me. It's the quiet coaches they get you the most, isn't it? You know, you don't want to disappoint those guys.

Sazi Sandi: 100% especially Brockie. You know, he's a person who's always willing to listen and understand and help, you know, especially when you have someone like that. You feel almost an extra sense of, you know, he's putting so much into me, you know, the least I can do is put this give that back. You know what I mean? When you're on the field and the message that is given you, you know, it's not coming from a bad place. It's coming from a good place and also from a place of experience, because he's been in those positions. And, you know, often, you know, in, in games or in training sessions, a few of the things that he's spoken over the years, maybe things he's forgotten that he's taught me, it kind of plays into my head, you know, subconsciously and consciously at the same time. So when you're in a game where you get an opportunity to play, you know, you feel that responsibility and gladly so to be like, flip, you know, Brok is putting so much to me over the years. And he doesn't understand the impact he's played over the time since he's joined until now. And we don't often say that, you know, often enough, but, you know, you get you have a great sense of pride in who you're playing for.

On Stormers Culture and Building Bridges

Brenden Nel: It's great to be inside Stormers' culture, as I've been privileged to be and see that where I come from, being so different, and the bridges that are built between people, between people that maybe wouldn't have met, except for rugby. Brok, are you enjoying that side of it? You know, the ability to just listen to stories and hear where people come from, and the, and the challenges that they had to overcome?

Brok Harris: Yeah, you know, I really enjoyed it. And it gives you a little bit of perspective. Yeah, so, yeah. So for instance, Abubakar, that to where you're from, how he needed to ride the bus, get up at four in the mornings, then he'll be late for school at eight. I'm like, but how does that work? Like, and then he went through that. And that just gives you a better perspective of, like, yeah, guys not bailing out, persevering, all that type of stuff. And some easy, some not. But yeah, we all have a place in this team and, and rightfully so. Yeah, so that's really a awesome thing. And it's a powerful thing to take all those backgrounds and, and generate, streamline it into in one direction and one purpose. So that's really nice.

On the Final Round Before Knockouts

Brenden Nel: One more round before the knockouts, but isn't it kind of in some ways, knockouts already? Is that how you're approaching it? For this week, guys? I mean, in some ways, you want to go into the knockouts on energy, with momentum, with your processes working. At the same time, you know, you don't want to, to lose the plot. So how are you approaching this final round in Cardiff?

Brok Harris: No, this is massive. This is, yeah, it's probably the biggest game of them all of the season. So we're already in the quarterfinals, but we need to do well on Friday to try and secure what's coming up next. So ideally, we know, travelling in the URC is tough. So we're in a position where we can make it easier for ourselves. I'm not saying we can't travel, doesn't matter where we play. I think we're good enough to go toe to toe against anybody, anywhere. But yeah, it's always easier to try and play at home. So yeah, Friday will be a massive, massive game against the Cardiff Blues.

Preparing for Cardiff

Brenden Nel: Yeah, so Cardiff kicks a lot. They're actually in some ways different from a lot of the other teams in the league, in that they kick and chase. They don't have a big high carry team. They don't actually, you know, they're not game line monsters. It's a clever, jackling, ruck-messing, mucking kind of team, you know, like it could be quite a kind of a street fight, kind of a squabble. You go into a game like that on the road, on a Friday night, you know, do you just kind of, what is the mental preparation that you guys go through for that?

Sazi Sandi: I think personally, in games like that, I always think, keep it simple. You know, what is the basis of rugby? You know, stop dominance, gain dominance. And then often in games like these, when you overthink it, that's where it gets away from you. There will be a plan, but as a player, what is your core role and what is your responsibility? And as a tighthead, it's to stop momentum and give momentum more scrum, get up, work, you know, that's how you think of it. So one, the occasion doesn't get ahead of you. And two, that you can just stick to the core values of the game and actually apply yourself properly and be able to stay present in big matches like this. To me, that is the basis of it.

Brenden Nel: Brok, I think maybe we're looking at a coach in the future here already. That was a really great summary.

On the Season and What Lies Ahead

Brenden Nel: It's been a funny old season for the Stormers. In some ways, during the middle of it, we felt, you know, some of the darkest days in some ways disappointing, other ways euphoric. I mean, the trouncing of Leinster at home, the skunking of Glasgow. There's been a lot of good things too. And here you are. I mean, Brok, you sit there where, in some ways, destiny in our own hands, in some ways not. I mean, because Glasgow's playing the same time. If you got this opportunity before the season started, you'd say, thank you. I take it. This is where we want to be, right?

Brok Harris: Yeah, definitely. In the last couple of seasons, we've never been in this situation. So, yeah, we need to look at all the positives. And like you said, now it's in our control. Yeah, and be greedy. Don't say there'll be another time like, this is it. You know, we need to look at all the positives and, like you said now, it's in our control. So, yeah, this is it. Yeah, take it all.

Closing

Brenden Nel: Guys, it's been absolutely wonderful. We love the series because it's interesting to see not only what's in your hearts and minds, but also how you relate to each other and how that that bridge works between player and coach. And absolutely tough that you spend some time with us and wish you the very, I mean, Mehrts wishes you a lot of luck. I wish you even more than that luck. You guys go all the way.

Andrew Mehrtens: I don't mind as long as you lose against the Bulls. I'm happy. I'm happy. That's my only condition.

Andy Capostagno: So yeah, I support you all the any South African team against any team other than my own team. I will support them. That's what we do over here. So yeah, I like the Stormers. I must be honest, I enjoy these conversations. I always I like getting to know the guys behind the guy running out into the field because it's just somebody that you know goes into a scrum or something but now I know you know how you think. And Brok, I've seen you in action. I was wondering about you know when you a pupil at a school and then next year you you go to study and then you then you become a teacher and you walk into the same place and these people are looking at you funny. Just the other day you were you one of them and I was wondering that kind of that must be quite an interesting one. So yeah, lots of things to talk about but listen guys it was awesome. Thank you so much and I appreciate you making time for us.

Brok Harris: Thank you.

Sazi Sandi: Yeah, thanks Harry, thanks.

Andy Capostagno: Yes, good luck guys.