The Ruck: Stormers coach Dobson on Europe's heat, Bok workloads, and leaving Mherbha at home

Will Kelleher: Hello everyone and welcome to The Ruck from the Times and the Sunday Times. Will Kelleher here and I've got a crack panel once again with Stephen Jones with me in the studio. Steve, how are you?

Stephen Jones: Very good, thank you Will. Thank you.

Will Kelleher: And down the line in our Wiltshire studios is Stuart Barnes. Stuart, you were at Kingsholm on the weekend, how was all that?

Stuart Barnes: Great first half, a little bit conservative in the second half but I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a beautiful day, we've had three days of fog in Wiltshire, went to Gloucestershire, beautiful cold crisp day. First half, the attack in rugby was of a very high standard, neither Gloucester or Northampton had a clue how to stop it and it was spearheaded by the Argentine fly half, who's Gloucester's wing or full back, Santiago Carreras. He took the game to the Saints gain line with such variety, such pace, such intelligence, they didn't know what was going on and it's going to be a big call for George Skivington when Hastings is around again because Carreras had something that no other fly half in the Premiership does and that's just the nerve and the commitment to attack him with ball in hand. I mean he scored brilliant tries, he made brilliant tries, he had an astounding game.

Will Kelleher: Yeah, he was sensational wasn't he and didn't play badly at Twickenham a few weeks ago as well. Steve, you had a weekend where you didn't go to a game but what was keeping you busy and enthused in your sporting life over the weekend?

Stephen Jones: Well, I was following the Eddie Jones review panel and everyone tells me and from my own observations that Eddie was toast and etc and toast and marmalade and all that but then I saw the panel begin to emerge as I tweeted on a little known newspaper, the Mail on Sunday, that's M-A-I-L I think not M-A-L-E, and a little known hack, well he revealed three of the panel and the three that were revealed were very famous people, players and coaches, Ian McGeechan, Jonathan Webb and Phil de Glanville but also three of the nicest men you'd ever meet and you just wonder, I hope that the other nine have got a bit of bite in them. You know, I mean I would have had Nick Cain and Stuart Barnes there for a start just because what you don't want surely and they're meeting almost as we speak, what you don't want is some chummy old thing at the end of which they think, oh well actually this wasn't too bad after all, we'd better keep him and that worries me because anyone who wants to keep him really should go and have another look at the last two games England have played or not played.

Will Kelleher: Well Stuart, yeah you mentioned the fog over the West Country there and I think there's a fair bit of fog around Twickenham and the RFU at the moment and it might even be thickening because as we came into the studio there was some big breaking news that came out from the WRU, they have re-signed Warren Gatland and dispensed with the services of Wayne Pivac so does that complicate the England picture further, possibly depending on what they do with Eddie Jones. We're going to try and speak about a fair bit of rugby on this podcast because I appreciate that everyone listens to this at different times in the week and news will change because it's a swift moving picture at the moment but we will get Steve and Stuart's thoughts on the Eddie Jones and the Warren Gatland situation at the end of this pod so stay tuned for that because that will be coming and worth listening to but on the podcast between those points we'll look back on the Premiership this weekend, Stuart as he mentioned was at Kingsholm so we'll talk a bit about the situation in the league there and Stormers coach John Dobson will join the show to look ahead to the European Cup although as we know now it's not really the European Cup because it's the South African teams joining and he's going up with his team to Clermont this weekend, one of the great rugby cathedrals he's going to tell us about their trip and what they're going to be up to and the inclusion of the South African side for the first time in the Champions Cup but also as we've flagged talk about the Eddie situation, the Warren Gatland situation and the moving parts in the coaching game and of course we'll end with the god or goddess of the week but first let's get into some Premiership action.

On Bristol being bottom of the Premiership

Will Kelleher: Right so we did have a round of Premiership rugby which will now pause because it's time for the Champions Cup but we'll cover that off first and Alfie the producer who everyone now knows, the famous Alfie who edits and produces this, gives us some lovely notes for this and on it in capitals this week is Bristol are bottom in capitals so Stuart Bristol are bottom, that's remarkable isn't it? I mean draw with Leicester which all the chat I suppose around that was whether Steve Borthwick would say anything about the Eddie Jones situation in England which newsflash shock he didn't but that was a remarkable game, late kick-off but Bristol being bottom of the league that's kind of snuck up hasn't it a bit?

Stuart Barnes: I don't know if it has, they're one dimensional in their game plan, when it works they're very good and they're at the top end of the table, when it doesn't work they don't have that much of a clue and that's what's happening and I'm very concerned because it seems any clubs I've played for are going right through the mill, two years Bath were bottom or next to bottom and now Bath have risen to one point off the bottom and it's my other old club in England Bristol that have gone down so I don't hold out much hope for Oxford in this year's Varsity match either.

Will Kelleher: Fair play Barnesy, you wrecked Newport before you even left Wales so all four of your clubs have gone down the pan.

Stuart Barnes: It took Zebre Steve for Newport to get off the bottom as well, it's quite a concern but going to Bristol in the end they did pretty well to come back from a 14 point deficit and get a draw but do you know what the biggest thing that I take out of this weekend and it's linked to Bristol being bottom and it's linked to Bath being one point off the bottom and London Irish beating Newcastle is this horrible dragging sense of disinterest without relegation. We should be talking about blimey, Bristol are going to be too good, too much money to stay there, Bath are on the move, is it just Irish or Newcastle and to be honest no one talks about it and no one cares and if you're a coach it's such a cop-out that you're not under any pressure whatsoever to achieve the wins to get yourself out of trouble and I think the culture of this country in football which is our driving sport has been promotion and relegation and then we get a few people say ah yeah but in America, in American football and baseball they don't have relegation, we've got a franchise system. It's a nonsense, the sooner we get back to relegation the better because I believe it is doing stealthy damage to the reputation of premiership rugby.

Stephen Jones: I totally agree Stuart and all the vintage premiership seasons have been where there's a big fight for the top four between say six clubs then there's a big fight for the top for the European qualification to be at the top seven or eight but underneath that there's this teeming rampaging panicking battle not to go down and that has illuminated the season and we're already you know there are a certain number of teams who appear to be guaranteed in the top four anyway and nothing else happening apart from that. I mean I think Bristol will surge up the table I think when Harry Randall comes back I think he's the man who sets the pace for them almost literally but I think they'll be fine but on the other hand the deadness of the post-Christmas the lower division or the lower part of the division post-Christmas the deadness of it is looming and it doesn't sound good.

Stuart Barnes: There has to be incentives in sport that last over a long period of months league championships you have the incentive we don't have an automatic champion like football does so you've got the incentive of making the top four to give you a chance you've then got the incentive of getting into Europe but there are usually two or three teams and I know it's slightly changed because we're down to 11 at the moment but philosophically there's normally two or three teams that have the incentive of not finishing bottom and going down. We now have a situation where a couple of teams can detach themselves and they can be utterly disincentivised and if that happens that makes the standard of rugby the adrenaline of rugby it weakens it it weakens crowds you have a televised game on BT and there's a third of the place only with people in it and people watching it go I don't know is it I don't know is this premiership rugby up too much and all the good stuff at the top it can be forgotten because it just looks at the bottom end like it's just chuck a couple of kids in who we don't know if they're any good or not and you know if we lose who cares. I don't want to watch promising kids play I want to watch the first teams the top selections every week if the if the promising kids happen to be in the best 15 that week categorically in the best 15 in the coaches mind fine.

Stephen Jones: I also think there's another drawback along with the lack of relegation Stuart and that is that the the international game is is is throwing a longer and longer and longer shadow so not only do the players disappear two weeks before the international season not only are they then missing for the whole international window but actually when everyone comes back it is unfair to stick them all back in immediately as they need a bit of a rest so even even now you or even this last weekend fans didn't know which of their superstars they would see I mean and also when they come to they'll still be I would think players missing for the European Cup so it's the long the lack of relegation and the long long shadow of the international season which is way too long.

Will Kelleher: A couple of notes on this and readers will probably be okay with this but we've been sort of flitting between internationals and club stuff for a bit but to be fair to Premiership Rugby they have reorganised the fixture lists after Christmas or after New Year really from I think round 14 onward so we'll actually have fewer overlaps now in the Six Nations between the tests and the club game so Steve to your point I think there'll be more internationals available I think there's now only one overlap rather than four or two rather than four and also I think the whole restructure which will have to come in 2024 onwards because of the Wasps and Worcester situation is going to lead to a shorter Premiership probably 10 teams is the preference and I don't know whether there's a way that they can add in there some sort of playoff between whatever the second division becomes and the top division to revamp that at the bottom but so there's a way of getting that going but something I suppose from this season is that it's an odd one isn't it where as you've been saying that 9th 10th and 11th all are on 17 and 8th are on 18 points at the moment so there's a bit of a battle at the bottom for kind of nothing because no one's going down and then at the top of the table you've got a Saracens side who didn't even play this weekend and are 11 points clear at the top so is the interest really for another season only about sort of the third and fourth places?

Stephen Jones: I think it is I think that's what we're looking at and at this time of when a lot of people think that the whole heartland or the bottom has fallen out of the Premiership it needs significant uplift significant public relations at the moment you're just wondering because after one week I mean this is ridiculous after one week of Premiership everyone readjusts now they're all disappearing to play Heineken Cup so it really is impossible and if you wanted to fix the season so that it demolished the Premiership then that is exactly how it's fixed I mean the the Premiership is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea at the moment you understand why having 10 teams works better it works better people will say first and foremost for health and safety they will then say it works better because you don't get the overlap with the international game all of this is true but if you've only got 10 teams you're just going to be seeing the same sides playing the same sides over and over and over and that's why relegation is vital to give fresh blood now and again but having 10 teams really does not extend the quality or the excitement of the Premiership because you know for 25 years now the sport really has remained stuck in fairly affluent small size market towns small cities like Gloucester, Northampton, Bath and it's all wonderful if you're a traditional fan there but you know I keep hearing about the game is going to be spreading and it's going to grow under professionalism but it hasn't because we haven't made the shift the top clubs look after themselves they don't like relegation because it affects their bank balance but without relegation and without a substantial number of changes in the Premiership on a regular basis it gets very stale I don't know about you Steve maybe you know you and I have been covering playing this sport for so long maybe we're stale but it feels to me that it just doesn't have that oomph that there has been for so long.

Stuart Barnes: Totally agree Stuart and the 10 the figure of 10 is set in stone though they've been told that's what it is and for a start they used to say oh we want more than 10 games because 10 teams because we want to have an opportunity to make more money well don't see why you going to 10 helps that.

Will Kelleher: Stuart just on the match you actually went to I mean the results for the weekend Quins beat Bath on Friday night and Gloucester won against Northampton which we were talking about that race for third and fourth was a fairly significant one I remember watching Gloucester before the internationals and thought they looked the team prime to make a challenge what do you make of them they've got their internationals back haven't they they've got on paper a seriously good squad and a shed that's behind them they look prime for a challenge do you think or not quite there?

Stuart Barnes: If they play as they did in the first half they could beat someone like Saracens if Saracens have an off day if they play like they did in the second half when they were just controlling the game to try and get a bonus point then they're going to be fourth or fifth and they'll take a bit of a tanking in the semi-final so I was really pleased with what I saw for 40 minutes and whilst I understood their game management I just thought this is a style of rugby and a level of rugby that simply isn't good enough to beat Saracens so I don't know are Gloucester trying to put together a team to qualify for Europe or are they putting together a team to really think on their day they can bloody anyone's nose?

Will Kelleher: Right well that's our premiership chat I think it was a significant chat on the premiership there which is good. Well my bit was I don't put banter Steve's was excellent I thought and as we as Steve kind of bemoaned there that the focus changed once again for us we're sort of flitting between lots of things here but up next we turn our attention to Europe and as we said at the top it's sort of Europe slash South Africa now isn't it so it returns this weekend with the inclusion of the South African sides and next on the podcast we're going to hear from the Stormers coach John Dobson who's going to tell us all about their trip to Clermont and all sorts of else.

Interview with John Dobson

Will Kelleher: Right so now on the ruck we're joined pleasure to be joined by John Dobson the head coach of the Stormers who are now one of the South African teams have joined the Champions Cup we can no longer call it the European Cup it's the Champions Cup and John Dobson you've got a game in one of the great rugby cathedrals coming this weekend in Clermont how excited are you to do that?

John Dobson: It couldn't be better for us you know it's a sort of place I suppose if you're going to go on this European journey to go to Stade Marcel Michelin to play our first game is probably very special we're incredibly excited but daunted I must say but and it feels about it might feel odd to you guys and you know some of it's logical and some of it's illogical that we are even in the competition but we are really really really excited I think it's a great for us to go to a place like that which we've we were looking at maps you know uh Stuart Barnes is a Francophile you know all about it you guys will be there covering I'm sure all of you we literally know nothing other than there's this yellow army and this amazing unbeaten run and so we're just researching frantically but super excited.

Will Kelleher: Yeah we were talking off air with Alfie the producer we were saying of all the places you want to go for your first trip I've actually never covered a game at the Stade Marcel Michelin but you have Steve it's a hell of a location isn't it?

Stephen Jones: When you get there John you think blimey what was the crowd you think it must have been about 40,000 but then you hear afterwards there's only 18,000 there but the atmosphere and the local passion is absolutely stunning it really is.

Stuart Barnes: I commentated there for 25 years with Sky and commentary you get caught in worlds of clichés and one of the great clichés is um you know how many times have you heard someone say oh the stand is literally rocking and actually at Clermont it literally it truly did rock your feet would move you there'd be two inches between the the concrete and your feet because 20,000 people were bouncing up and down it's it's gonna be for you John you know I spent a lot of time in South Africa I know the atmosphere there but this is I I think it is the cathedral of French club rugby.

John Dobson: You're not giving me much hope but oh they're not a very good team fantastic we're looking at it as a great experience we're really excited yeah.

On the logistics of temperature extremes

Stephen Jones: How are you going to work the logistics of the next two weeks John because we were looking at the weather for a start and I think on Saturday it's going to be minus two minimum celsius in Clermont and then the following week you're at home in Cape Town against London Irish where it's pretty much summer isn't it it's going to be 25 26 so can you talk us through how you're doing that?

John Dobson: Yeah look we we we we travel out today you did right I think on Saturday at Clermont is one degree starts at a minus three and gets up to a balmy one or two um and then and I think this is one of the challenges you guys whether it's good or bad that you're going to see over this competition over the next few weeks so Lyon are going to come out here and play at Loftus first felt on you know and that's going to be they're going to be going from the same temperature to 30 degrees and we saw the difference I don't know how close you followed the URC last year we played a whole lot of games in February and March after the Omicron thing and now you just you take poor old Cardiff out of that and then on to into um 30 degrees in Cape Town Stadium then the stadium's all hotter than outside because of the concrete. Now for our side we're okay because we're coming home but I do feel for London Irish I mean that's going to make it a little slightly less equitable you know whether from us from our from our side training wise we just got some plans of when we train in the day and how little we're going to train over there. I think the challenge is harder and Stu you know from your playing there the hardest for the European teams coming into our heat rather than us going up there.

Will Kelleher: John I was wondering it's uh you guys are never never will always be up for any sort of challenge in South African rugby but when you sat down to plan and you and you realised you were in Europe you realised that the URC is joining you so you're you've got to go to other countries as well it must have been slightly forbidding as a prospect for you because you know you have to go a long way for every every away game.

John Dobson: Yeah and it's got the downside for you know whether you Munster fans or Cardiff fans but it was this this one is very daunting because last year we had a really easy ride because Leinster came up for example and they sent a sort of large academy team with with Leo Cullen and you know while we were preparing they sent an academy team there they went to go I think I went to play Exeter or somebody really big in the European quarterfinal and we had a week off before carrying on the URC and he sort of gave us a chilling warning wait till you have to fight the one on two fronts and you know we go we go in our case two Heineken Cup or that's what they're called now Heineken Cup games then we go to the Bulls in Cape Town Stadium on 23 December which would be a monstrous game there's no love lost between anybody involved in the two camps and then we play on a New Year's Day and then we go back up to Europe again so no we were in for a hell of a ride but that's why we worked so hard in this URC now to just build in depth but you know Heineken Cup's not a not a dense competition great for us to build fringe players and maybe we get away with them in the URC home game but you know to take a 19 year old lock like we are this week to that play to Clermont that's going to be it's going to be tough.

On adapting style and selection

Will Kelleher: I was going to say John I remember having a conversation with you about this in the summer but your selection's going to have to adapt and style of play for these games that the Northern Hemisphere ones you might want to kick more or box kick more but down in Cape Town you're going to play your usual style of crazy running game and all that sort of stuff how are you trying to manage that as well as everything else?

John Dobson: Yeah that was the plan we wouldn't box kick very well on the weekend we happen to think there's an opportunity I hope they're not too many of their followers against Clermont moving them around that's just that just suits to be the opposition it may not be the plan for London Irish we'll definitely have to have a different game at Brentford in January I think you know in Clermont we see we can be hopefully a bit similar on the heat of grass but we are also African teams and it happened when the Cheetahs and the Kings were in the in the whatever it was called the pro whatever it was they you have a hard court and a sort of clay court game and we're developing that with some of our personnel like you may just come off you won't know called Steph Ungerer might come in for Jantjies when we want to do the box kick and stuff we've also got a USP of how we play and that could be a way to unlock teams so that's going to be a bit of a balancing act for us.

Will Kelleher: Yeah absolutely just on a on a wider thing as well obviously we're talking to you because the South Africans are joining and this is the first week we're going to see it what do you think it will do for South African rugby to have the the top sides in the Champions Cup?

John Dobson: Yeah we followed the the Champions Cup got bigger and bigger in South Africa over the last few years and you know it became which was never the case you know Super Rugby as it atrophied and was you know stuffed up if there's another way of putting it and the Covid mostly brought a bullet to it there was growing interest already even though there's no talk of us being in Six Nations or the URC and you know people would start saying okay we're going to watch Exeter Munster this weekend you know so there was growing interest I think it's gone a bit under the radar the last couple of weeks with all the rubbish you know no that's not true the Autumn Internationals and all the sort of fallout and what went on like that it's been talked of here as the gap between URC and Test rugby.

On South Africa and the Six Nations

Will Kelleher: Do you think that it points to this wider jigsaw piece I know everyone it looks at it and thinks that the end goal for South African rugby is to get into the Six Nations do you feel like that's part of it and what would you say as someone who coaches in South Africa to that idea? It seems to be almost in it where there might be some logic missing.

John Dobson: It seems to be an inevitability and one of the reasons I'd say that is because of the Springboks. So now we've got, for example, Frans Malherbe is now regarded as a national treasure after the game at Twickenham a couple of weeks ago. Oh yeah. He doesn't have a day, a second off, you know, without us giving him chronic rest because, you know, the URC players in Six Nations, then it goes to play out to that and God willing win playoffs of URC and maybe even somewhere in Europe. Then he goes into a World Cup, even if it wasn't a World Cup, it'll be the, what you call the summer tours and then it would be the rugby champ. There's just no, so from that point of view that that's one argument that we have to get more aligned. But what I'm worried about is what this global season looked like because at the moment, you know, just as you suggested at the start here, well, the change in temperature, it's just such a difference to performance. I promise you Bulls-Lyon game will look so different and the score will be so different at the two venues. But at the moment, the URC is sort of scourged a little bit by, do they have their internationals that weekend, you know, where it's a bit more aligned in the current season, you know, within Europe and England. So I think we, I think the only way around that is us going into that, into that competition or at very least the rugby championships moving into that window, which would be a struggle.

On managing Springbok workloads

Will Kelleher: Yeah, because at the moment, well, we were talking to Handré Pollard at the EPCR launch the other day, and he was not been playing himself because he's injured, but he was making the point that South African Springbok players basically in a 12 month never ending season at the moment, where they go from a Southern Hemisphere test season to a Northern Hemisphere club season. So how are you trying to manage that yourself with your Bok guys?

John Dobson: Yeah, we try to look, it's not easy, but I'm trying to exceed by a week, whatever rest they get told. So like after the end of your tour, one week, I'll try and give them two. It's tricky because, you know, we're going into this world of the Heineken Cup, there's no ways we can't be our strongest team. Well, I can tell you now, for example, at Clermont, I'm going to leave Frans Malherbe at home, because I don't think we can put him onto an aeroplane via Istanbul this afternoon after what, you know, after what he's been through. And that's a pity, because we need to be as strong as we can for these tournaments. But we also know URC is afraid of butter to re-qualify for Europe. So what they've sort of told us is, you know, have a go at, you know, I suppose, putting a line in the water for Heineken Cup. If after two rounds you're blown away, then you step back from that, which is very sad because it's such a good competition. Or you keep fighting, you know, we've got London Irish is probably at home next week's probably more important than this week in Clermont, because it's a home game, and that'll keep us alive. But the managing, you know, having your players available and knowing that you should rest them is a very tricky spot to be in. But I just got this theory that if I double their rest periods, they'll be hungrier and more keener to play well and play well for us than maybe pressing in and straight into action.

On squad selection and travel logistics

John Dobson: So that's why Franz is not coming, the rest are, Steven Kutsov, Damien Willems, so the rest are coming.

Andy Capostagno: Lots of our listeners, John, will be listening to this and going, oh, I'm not so keen on the South African teams joining and think it devalues or changes the traditions of the European Cup and all that. What would you say to that from a South African perspective and what you think it will bring you guys coming and joining?

John Dobson: Look, the first thing that I completely understand, you know, we watch, you know, I watch the Six Nations with a sense of mystique and sort of probably battled myself to get Italy in my mind, you know, and so we love the tradition. The Six Nations, to me, is the best tournament to watch. So and the same with the European Cup, it's almost becomes mythical, these things like where we go on Saturday or Saracens Leinster game. But I do think you're going to enjoy us. You're going to enjoy the style of rugby that we play. It's different to the Springboks. The venues are greater. You know, if it comes right, you know, coming to Cape Town to come and play, it could be a great occasion, the European thing and probably add to the rugby firmament. But I can understand the upset. But I do think we're going to, it'll take us a year and then I think we'll compete properly as we tend to.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah. Just on that note as well, you talk about the fans and all that. How are your ticket sales going for that Irish game? Do you feel like you're going to get a decent crowd for that? Are they animated about hosting an English team?

John Dobson: That's been one of the disappointments of this season's URC so far, you know, I think we played in Gqeberha, which used to be known as Port Elizabeth. We got about 15,000, 14,000, but there were some horrific crowds before and in other venues. But the Heineken Cup, Cape Town during the holiday season, no, we just had a really good crowd. It's by the time this gets to the sharp end or we got a year in, you see, I think what people, we are so conditioned here to knowing brands, the Crusaders is a massive brand, Hurricanes, Waratahs, we know we had 25 years of that or whatever it was, 22 years of that. You know, still in the URC, Ospreys, still not, you know, with respect, Dragons are not really known yet. And London Irish may still be a small, not a massive one here. But I promise you, if we get to the last 16 game and draw a Saracens, I reckon you're looking at a pretty full Cape Town stadium. So it might just take a few weeks, but we'll get there, I think.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah. Okay. So what's the rest of your day and your week look like? You're off to the airport later, you're saying going via Istanbul, where are you flying into? How's it all working out?

John Dobson: This is a really foreign stuff. I was lucky we got Deon Fourie, a promising young Springbok flanker who made his debut at 36. Deon Fourie played in Lyon for a long time. So we land in Lyon. We actually tried a base that we weren't allowed to. And then we go up to Clermont, we won't train Tuesday, we'll just do a high speed session on Wednesday, take Thursday off. I think it's really, really, really important for these guys as we get used to this, actually, then to get out and about. So I'll give them a bit of a talk tomorrow about the Michelin factory, the death of the guy who drowned, what the team means to the town and all that sort of stuff. And try and get them out into a bar and a restaurant. I know we should be very, very professional, but I think we have to take a bigger view. Let's assimilate, understand Europe and enjoy a bit of touring. You know, I can't understand that England can play South Africa international and there can't be a beer between the two teams or function afterwards, you know. So we're going to be really, really good tourists and try and enjoy the trip and try and burgle a point and then come back and go full noise for London Irish and only give them a reward.

Andy Capostagno: I was just going to say, I saw the Harlequins guys were flying to Durban to play the Sharks, having champagne in the first class lounge. So they're doing it right too. It must be refreshing though, like everyone goes through the rhythms of a season and it all comes a bit samey, but it's a bit different, isn't it? And people, whether they like it or not, it must be refreshing for coaches and teams to do something a bit different.

John Dobson: Yeah, that's why I think this is so important. You know, we played literally the first URC and COVID was a factor. Zebre came. I didn't speak to an Italian. I didn't see one. I didn't speak one. We're some of these opposition. I mean, I'm serious about the England South Africa game. I spoke to our players. I said, did you speak to anybody afterwards? Was there a function? Did you have a beer? And that's a big game. It's a big nothing. And I think, you know, part of our European adventure must be, you know, we'll host something here for these guys. Yeah, I think that's really important part of, you know, I think it's great for success and enjoyment and that we encourage that as much as we can. I think the more we can get back to touring, the more rugby will become less same, same. So we're going to try.

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, I think you're preaching to the choir here and we'd love to do a Ruck on tour. We always talk about Ruck on tour, but one in Cape Town is probably top of the bucket list, isn't it? But John, really best of luck for it. And it's going to be fascinating to see how you all go. And hopefully we can come and see you down by Table Mountain for a glass of pinotage or something like that fairly soon.

John Dobson: Yeah, we'll be large. You won't have to pour it in your tea jug anymore.

Andy Capostagno: No comment. No comment. John, all the best. Thanks for having me.

Brenden Nel: All the very best, John. Thanks a lot. I hope we add some value.

John Dobson: Thanks.

On Warren Gatland's return to Wales

Andy Capostagno: Right, everyone, the tectonic plates are moving in the international game. And as we trailed at the top of the podcast breaking news as we came into the studio this morning on a Monday that Warren Gatland has returned to the Wales job. Wayne Pivac is out. Gatland is back. Steve Phillips, the CEO at the WRU, said this appointment is no quick fix nor sticking plaster. It's part of our long-term planning for the game in Wales. Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. So, I know this is going to annoy some Wales fans, but just to put the context around this, Gatland could have been an option for England. Eddie Jones, us recording this on Monday, is going to enter his review with the panel, talk about that. This now changes the scene a bit, whether England were going to go for him or not. He is now unavailable. So, Stuart, I suppose, throw to you. What does this mean for everything? I mean, it's an amazing return for Gatland having been out of the job in that 2019 World Cup. He comes back, Wales' most successful coach. It's going to change the scene remarkably, isn't it?

Stuart Barnes: It's a mess, really. Pivac was picked to change the way Wales played a bit. Gatland had tremendous success in terms of trophies and win ratios, but there was always a sense that they wanted something a little bit more, which Pivac seemed to give the Scarlets. I feel sad that one of the reasons Pivac failed was, in the end, he wasn't true to himself. Now, what Wales will be now with Warren back is true to the Gatland philosophy. And I make no bone to say I'm quite glad he's not in the England mix because I think Gatland is a brilliant organiser. He's hugely structured, but I want a coach that works with the framework as opposed to a rigid game plan. And I think Wales have benefited from the rigidity of a Gatland game plan. But I think England had more depth. They have more variety. And that's not what they need. It might be what Wales needs. And with the World Cup coming and the state Wales are in, then I probably think it's not just might, it is what Wales needs.

Andy Capostagno: The ghost of Georgia is haunting the principality, Steve. And I think it makes eminent sense for Wales to recall Gatland. Steve, it's a fascinating line in the press release that they've put out that they're making it clear that this is not just a sticking plaster appointment for the World Cup. They've said with the ability to go through the next World Cup cycle up to and including Australia 2027. And I suppose all the discussions with England were if he were to come in, it would be basically for a year to stick the plaster on. But how many plasters do you need in Welsh rugby at the moment? I mean, is going back to Warren Gatland going to solve all these myriad issues that we've talked about so often on this podcast?

Steve Jones: It is interesting. I disagree almost with everything Stuart said. Frankly, I think Gatland would have been a great coach for England because he would have brought in a proper coaching group. And I would have thought that Warren would be bitterly disappointed he can't get Shaun Edwards would almost certainly have been on the phone to Robin McBryde and Rob Howley to put the squad back together. I'm very, the person I'm most sad about is Wayne Pivac. I think he's very unlucky. It is not the same as Eddie where Eddie has mucked up a really promising situation and betrayed a generation of players. It is the whole surroundings. They've said to Pivac, build this big wall without bricks and straw. The likes of Steve Phillips and all these would be gods of rugby in Cardiff really should have carried the can and gone before Pivac. I think he should still be there. I think he's an excellent coach. But as I say, he was making bricks without straw. Gatland's, Wayne Warren's appointment until Wales get themselves sorted, which case Gatland will be absolutely fine. But he will be taking every shortcut available. And still there's no agreement for professional rugby in Wales. Still the game is shattered below the top level games been called off every week. So not even him is going to march in and win a Grand Slam as first up like he did last time.

Andy Capostagno: It's a remarkable thing, though, isn't it? I mean, Welsh rugby, he's he said himself, I was in the room and in the third fourth place playoff in 2019, where Warren Gatland, they lost that game to New Zealand. And he said it would break my heart if Wales went back into the doldrums. And they look like they're in the doldrums. And the first person they call when they're in the doldrums is Warren Gatland. He's his classic skill with the Welsh national team in his first stint, I suppose we'll have to call it now was making it almost like a club environment, wasn't it? And despite the results of the regions, which was you, which were usually bad, he managed to create this brilliant atmosphere and he got the blokes in the team and they got him and that he kind of made this sort of one for all for one atmosphere. But absolutely doing that again, with a different group of players, like how does he manage that and move on perhaps from the likes of Alun Wyn and Dan Biggar and all those guys in the next cycle? Does he just try and kind of patch together his old team with a couple of new guys in? It's remarkable.

Steve Jones: No, what he does is he'll assess everyone who's there. And if they're still good enough, that you pick them. If they're not, you won't. But you know, again, Warren's got a totally unfair reputation. Somebody once made up the expression Warren Ball. It meant nothing. Wales played exactly the same as everybody else, 95%. And he was stuck with it. He's actually a good all-round coach. He'll sort the forwards out. He'll get the right kids in, not the wrong kids, but that's Pivac's problem. But unless he can be omnipotent, and that is go in tomorrow and say to the union, you must settle now with the clubs. And unless he can get like a Pied Piper, get the whole country back on side, then even he will struggle. What I do know is that it's never dull in rugby this season, isn't it? I mean, blimey, we've gone through clubs going bust.

Stuart Barnes: No, it is dull. Rugby is dull. Isn't it, Barnsley? I find rugby really dull.

Andy Capostagno: It's not dull on the news front anyway. And all I was going to say to finish that bit off was that they can polish off Gatland's Gate again, which they signed up for him around that 2019 season. So I don't know what quite happens at Gatland's Gate, but it's back. And Warren Gatland is back with Wales. That's going to have a knock on effect. And Schenken, the goat, has resigned.

Stuart Barnes: Resigned or resigned?

Andy Capostagno: It's a different Schenken. There's been 21 Schenkens.

Stuart Barnes: Okay, 22 maybe for the 2027 cycle, right.

On Eddie Jones and England's future

Andy Capostagno: So just to cover off the news as we know it, I know we won't go too deep into the Eddie Jones chat because it'll change quite a lot. But we're recording this on Monday. He's having a meeting with the RFU board today. The mood music is that he may well lose his job. That decision will be ratified by the board on Tuesday if that indeed is the decision, and then the announcement on Wednesday. So depending on when you're listening to this, you could have news that Eddie Jones is no longer the England head coach. And then we will see what happens after that. But as we said at the top of this little segment, the tectonic plates are shifting. It's never a dull moment, and we're going to be covering it all the way till Christmas and beyond, I'm sure, all the way to the Six Nations. Right, so now one of the big dominoes in the coaching landscape has fallen, guys. Just a thought from both of you quickly, what would you do next with England if you were in the RFU, if you were on their panel? Steve, should we start with you? What would be your next option?

Steve Jones: It seems that Steve Borthwick may be favourite. I would love to think that Scott Robertson, who hasn't actually got a massive job at the moment, I'd hope they put in a big bung offer for him, even if he's not number one, because I would love to see him offsetting all the downbeat character of Steve Borthwick, who's a great coach, and take off some of the pressure from Steve, because when he's in the media conference, he looks like he's just about to be shot by a load of armed snipers, rather than just spoken to by the media. I'd have Steve Borthwick, and hopefully Scott Robertson would take a position as, say, coach and a director of rugby or something like that, because I would love him to be involved and giving them the bit of vision.

Andy Capostagno: So you'd have both of them, okay.

Steve Jones: I'd have both of them.

Andy Capostagno: So Stuart, what do you reckon to that?

Stuart Barnes: I think Steve Borthwick will do a very fine job over the years. Steve's quite conservative, there's not going to be a radical change, and this is about radical change. And where I totally agree with Steve is, not just sort of off the field in his press conferences, the way he thinks he needs somebody to galvanise him. Look at Leicester without George Ford, they're struggling. Borthwick without his game planner, or should we say framework maker, is looking just a little bit confusing. Right now, you just say, hang on a minute, Steve Borthwick, but Leicester have played nine, they've won four, they've lost four. What's different? Ford's gone, and they look a different team. I'm not saying that in time, he's not the man, I'm just saying there are actually question marks now. And I don't think Steve Borthwick has the, his strengths, I don't think, are what you need with a World Cup around the corner. I think Steve Borthwick needs time to build, and then I think he'll do a good job. But I think he needs time, and he doesn't have it.

Andy Capostagno: Very different situation, but a little parallel, maybe, with the Wayne Pivac thing we were talking about earlier, where they sort of anoint a club coach a bit early, and then they start having a bit of an average season.

Stuart Barnes: Yes, that's true, that's very true.

Steve Jones: That's what Stuart says, that's what indeed it was. And they went by the last three games, really, the results of the last three games, and Leicester's not very good. I mean, what would be bold and fresh would be for Robertson to get the job, but I don't think the RFU do bold and fresh things.

Andy Capostagno: All right, well, we will try and keep you updated as much as we can across the Times, the Sunday Times, and all sorts else, so please refresh and keep looking at your Twitter accounts and our app and everything else, because there's going to be plenty of news this week. We're going to keep on going, we're going to keep on writing, we're going to keep on podding until we get a definitive verdict, and then, perhaps around Christmas, we'll have a mince pie and say that was a mad year, 2022.

God or Goddess of the Week

Andy Capostagno: Why don't we move on to God or Goddess of the Week? Let's end on a positive note. Shall we start with you, Stuart? Have you got a candidate for your god or goddess?

Stuart Barnes: Yeah, I think it's time to go to South America. I'm going to go Santiago Carreras. I've long thought Gloucester should play him fly half, not in the back three. He was quite brilliant in that position. He can transform them. He can transform any English attacking midfield. He'll do for me. Santiago is my god of the week.

Andy Capostagno: Lovely, nice choice. Steve?

Steve Jones: Can you have a footballer?

Andy Capostagno: Yeah, yeah.

Steve Jones: I was going to go outside of rugby, I think. I'm going outside of rugby to the great man who got off the mark yesterday and led the England boys to a glorious victory, and prior to coming back home to White Hart Lane, as it used to be called, and taking this to the title, knocking off those Arsenal idiots.

Andy Capostagno: Harry Kane, I assume?

Steve Jones: Yes.

Andy Capostagno: Yes, right. Well, mine was going to be outside rugby, as I said, and I'm going to give a dual award for positivity in an England shirt to Jude Bellingham and Ben Stokes for their attitude, their way of playing the game. We've been recording this podcast while England have just won their test match in Pakistan by 74 runs, and being prepared to lose in order to win is something the England rugby team are miles away from, and I think if there was a little bit of Ben Stokes and Jude Bellingham attacking, counter-attacking, going for the throat in the England rugby team, there'd be a far better side. So there we go.

Stuart Barnes: That's a very good one.

Andy Capostagno: And in stark contrast, I think, the two other main international teams playing at the moment for England, it's a stark contrast to what we've seen in the England rugby team. So on the Ruck you've got cricket punditry, you've got football punditry, and you've not come for any of it, but you're getting it. So there you go. Right, so that has been a busy, packed Ruck. We're going to go straight into the Champions Cup action, Challenge Cup action over the next couple of weeks, and then suddenly, before you know it, we're into Christmas and everything else and the New Year. So keep, stay tuned, stay updated with us on the Times, the Sunday Times and the Ruck. But for now, we thank to Stuart and we thank to Steve, and we thank you for listening. All the best to you all. Goodbye.