Springboks Through Irish Eyes: Gráinne Seoige on Loftus, Rassie, and Why SA Rugby Is Unlike Anything Else

Opening: The Scolding That Started It All

Harry Jones: Out of the blue, the most famous person who ever has subscribed to our pod and follows us reached out, not to praise us, but to scold us.

Gráinne Seoige: And the rendition of the anthem that night was... It gave me tingles. Hoendervleis, gave me hoendervleis. Just to be clear, my heart is not torn. My heart is never torn. Y'all is my tweede span, like you're my second team. If you're playing anybody else, I'll cheer for you.

Announcer: This is the Lekker Rugby Pod, only on Megaphone Rugby.

MW Welman: Welcome to the Lekker Rugby Pod. And as promised on last week's, last Wednesday's Lekker Rugby Pod, we have a special guest on here today. And Harry, I haven't seen you chastened that often in my life, but this one sure took you by surprise and it made you humble and made you rethink and take a step back. And before we speak to our guest, tell us about it.

Harry Jones: Oh, yeah, this is a part of my life. Raised on the leafy, the mean streets of Constantia. I was chastened often by the team of maids, mother, sisters, the neighbours. Everyone could give you a clap in those days, right? And I just kind of lived perpetually in trouble and getting out of trouble, which is why I grew up to be a fixer, because I really just do that still, you know? And sometimes I even get my clients in trouble on purpose so I can extricate them. Yeah, out of the blue, the most famous person who ever has subscribed to our pod and follows us, reached out not to praise us, but to scold us and to bring us up short. And I had to have a crisis, a crisis of confidence and a crisis of self-faith. And it came in the form of six disappearing pages of text. I mean, narrative. And it was from a woman who's known by her first name in Ireland. Across all the island, you know, if you say Gráinne or Gráinne, you know exactly who that is. I didn't necessarily, but I was taken by the prose, the narrative, the good faith of saying that you didn't give enough credit to the Galwegians, Connacht, and their famous win over Stormers. But the way she did it, I thought, well, she makes good points. I kept thinking of how can I counterattack and I can dismiss this. And then I realised, not really, she's kind of on point. Plus, turns out she lives about two streets away from you with a proper Boer seun. And so she wasn't like antagonising me or attacking South Africa in general, maybe a little bit of Cape Town, but not really. And so I decided to, you know, be a grown up and say, thank you. I can grow, you make good points. And then, you know, one thing led to another, and I started to actually engage on those points. And for everyone who doesn't like trolls and bemoans the, you know, the toxic nature of social media, there is a way to do it. And so Gráinne and I did that. And it turned out that I said, well, why don't you just come on our show and make a bigger exposition of it? And it turns out that, so Gráinne is from Galway, if you are familiar with Ireland or not. If you just got in a car in Dublin and drove west until you couldn't drive anymore, then you'd be in Galway. It's a city of musicians and artists. I think it's been celebrated such in the country, but also in Europe at large. It's got a beautiful coastline. If you go north, you run into Connemara, which is this like kind of like the garden route almost. And if you go south, you run into big cliffs, which is almost like running around the Cape Peninsula. The people from there tend to be poetic and storytellers. A lot of it lies, a lot of it truth, doesn't matter anymore. Who knows, it's truer than true, it's poetically true. And once upon a time, perhaps Gráinne and I were at the same ground watching Hurling back in the day when I was in Ireland with my son and who knows. But anyway, we are so pleased and so happy to have her. She lives in Pretoria, as I said, and she is a fanatic and also a great critic of our podcast. So without further ado, welcome Gráinne.

Gráinne Seoige: Thank you very much, thank you for having me. It's nice to be here.

MW Welman: No, you make it obvious I'm happy. I love that, Arie, I said it in an Afrikaans combination. I think, you know, yeah, sorry, moving on, not being a fanboy. Shall I go on?

Harry Jones: Yeah, give us some more.

Gráinne Seoige: Well, it's well known that the South African accent is extremely popular in Ireland. It worked for me personally. And I think the same goes over here. People hear you speak and they go, where are you from? And you say Ireland, and then you speak a bit of Afrikaans and they say, jy's 'n blerrie oulike boytjie. Yeah, I know. Nice. There's a lot of appreciation here. I know you started with, I came on with a negative, but actually I think there's a lot to love about the relationship between the two of you. There's a lot to love about the relationship between South Africa and Ireland. And that's where I'm going, because I don't want to be trolled to death when this podcast goes out.

Harry Jones: Not at all. By the end of this pod, everyone's gonna just see the substance of it. And I think this is the crossover. If you talk to a South African, very quickly he will disagree with you or she will disagree with you and tell you something you're wrong on. And no, no, he must. It's like, you know, I'm tired. No, you're not tired, Arie. No, no, you're not tired. What you're actually feeling, I can't tell you what you're really feeling. I find the same in Ireland, going across Ireland, whether it was in Limerick or Cork or Galway, people love to engage and set you straight. So no, I think there's a crossover there. Also, that's the first thing that MW has said to me is jy's 'n oulike boytjie, to me, that's why I'm on this pod with him.

MW Welman: Oh, is that why? Is that how, that's the way your heart talks?

Harry Jones: That's my story. That's my story. Yeah, he's sticking to it.

Gráinne Seoige: I thought this would be true, but he's sticking to it.

On Growing Up With Sport

MW Welman: So tell us your life with rugby and why you come to love the greatest sport in the world so much. I know in Ireland, there's lots of sports to love.

Gráinne Seoige: Yeah, there are. I suppose I'm the eldest of four kids and two brothers came after me, but I was essentially treated as another boy growing up by my dad, a now retired policeman and brought to matches every Sunday. If there was anything on TV that involved a ball or racing or even two flies running up a wall, we were watching it or we were going there. So sport was just, the love of sport was just, I don't know, it was bred into me from the get-go. And I just think there is nothing like sharing a sporting occasion with a lot of people. And in the GAA tradition in particular, which is what I was brought up in, which is very like the rugby one, you can go to a match and sit beside somebody from the opposing team and you can slag each other off and you can share sweets and you can take the piss and you can commiserate with each other. And everybody goes home. Nobody has a black eye and there's no abuse. And that's what I love that GAA and rugby have in common, that kind of camaraderie and the shaking hands in the end and well done or, as we say in Ireland, you'll have another day. There'll be another day, you'll win the next time. And you wish each other well. And I think the great thing is you respect the effort, you respect the culture of each other. And I just think that is something that GAA has and rugby has, and you don't find it in a lot of the sports. And it's one of the things I really love about it. They're great days out because you can go in, have fun with other people in the stand. You can disagree, offside, sir, or hands in the ruck, or not at all, you can have that argument, but it's all good natured. And when you say goodbye to that person, you'll never see them again, but you've had a lovely moment with them.

Harry Jones: Do you think being raised that way has made you more competitive as a person and more comfortable with competition, healthy competition?

Gráinne Seoige: Healthy competition is great. And I suppose it does help you in life not to be afraid to put yourself forward. And I was raised by two parents who always encouraged me to go for what I wanted and to work hard and rewards come if you do that. So I always kind of had that to heart. And I started my career in TV in Ireland at the age of 21 as a news anchor. So I was very young going into it and I've been really lucky in my career so far, but sport has never left me. And I suppose later in life, when I met a man who was a club rugby coach in Ireland at the time, the amount of rugby information I was getting sort of got dialled up. I'm not saying that everything else got dialled down, but I was definitely getting another sort of feed of information and SuperSport in the morning and getting up really early to watch South Africa play New Zealand because of the time differences. And I got a new appreciation for that game and started to attend a lot of matches. And I've been at a lot of Ireland and South Africa matches in the last number of years. And I'm really glad to say I've been smiling more than frowning leaving them.

Harry Jones: Yeah, and it works. You can use the language of rugby in your marriage because just like Angus Gardner, the referee from Australia, often preaches to the front rows, you must accept the bind. You must listen to it. You're too far away, too much distance. And even if you're talking about an argument—

Gráinne Seoige: Engage.

Harry Jones: Oh, hold, fold. Yeah, so there's lots of things you could use. Maybe Leon could just be the rugby coach inside the marriage.

On Connacht and Galway

MW Welman: What is Galway scene? We know Leinster, it's Svengat, it's Donnybrook, Dublin, South Dublin boys with their toffee accents. But what is Galway? It always seems to be left out a little bit when people discuss rugby. There's Munster, there's Leinster. Sometimes there's a bit of an Ulster bit.

Gráinne Seoige: Yeah, we are considered the poor relation. We are the poor relation by any metric in terms of investment in the province. And at one stage in the early 2000s, the IRFU nearly made it three provinces. They wanted to get rid of us. They wanted to throw us into a bag and throw us out into the sea. And I suppose the great thing about Ireland and I think that's another thing that South Africans would have in common. If you want to make something popular, ban it. If you want to make something popular, try and get rid of it. And the next thing, people from the West went up and protested outside of IRFU headquarters and made a big toyi-toyi and a big ruckus and a lot of noise. And Connacht was kept. But that didn't mean that we were, you know, that nobody made it rain for Connacht after that. It wasn't like we were being showered with funding. We were having to make do always with very little. And, you know, people who left the Leinster Academy or, you know, young lads coming through. And then Pat Lam came along in the 2010s and it led to, in 2016, our first ever cup. And beating Leinster in Scotland, you know, to come home with silverware was particularly sweet. And I think it justified for a lot of people in Ireland our being there, our existing. And I suppose we thought after that, things would go on and jump up another gear and they haven't. But now it's, and we've had ups and downs. And I think, you know, that was the thing about Connacht for years. They play really mooi attacking rugby and they fire the ball around and then they're leaky in defence. They might score six tries, but they let in eight. And, you know, I suppose we got used to that, that kind of thing of, oh, they're great for 60 minutes. And all of a sudden the worm will turn three or four tries picked off and then we're going home sad again. But I think with Stuart Lancaster coming in, that is changing. He's, you know, he's only in there a very short time and you can see the difference already. And I'm really hopeful. Whatever happens this year with the URC, I'm really hopeful for the future. We need to hang on to him.

Harry Jones: Yeah, so it was a bit too much hartklop and not enough skop en jaag. And now with a more pragmatism coming in, looking better.

Gráinne Seoige: Yeah, you admired the pragmatism the other day.

Harry Jones: Yes, yes, I like it when you successfully take someone off the game and the game you should lose, make your opponent play worse. And that's classic, that's classic game theory. But I suppose that comes a little bit from now that I think about it, the culture itself. So you're always the underdog, you're the underdog everywhere in Galway. Is Galway where the old Irish language is most used? Is that fair?

Gráinne Seoige: So all along the Western seaboard from Donegal on the top, we'll say top left corner, Northwest down to Galway and then Kerry and parts of Cork is where Irish is spoken as the daily language, which is what I grew up with at home, Gaeilge. So I live in the Gaeltacht, which is an Irish speaking part of the country. So Galway, you've been there. So it's incredibly cultural. You walk down the main street and you might see three or four different buskers playing different types of music, like Ed Sheeran honed his craft standing on one of the corners in Galway. And there are pictures of him with the red hair and a guitar bigger than himself, you know, learning how to sing in public. It is an incredibly cultural city. There's a lot of noise, a lot of, you know, Tommy Tiernan, the great comedian, once said there are two seasons in Galway, winter and festivals. So whether that's the arts festival, film festival, racing festival, oyster festival, there's always something happening. That's great because it's always something taking your attention, but it also makes us sort of bohemian and laid back. So maybe we're not as demanding of success as maybe other provinces are. We're not as focused on that. But at the same time, as you said, Harry, we are used to being seen as underdogs. And, you know, the South Africans loved being underdogs for many, many years. And in fact, some would say you're still trying to pretend you're underdogs.

Harry Jones: Yes, thank you very much.

Gráinne Seoige: Even though it's the 2350th day of you being world champion.

Harry Jones: Thank you, Gráinne, right?

Gráinne Seoige: Does Meneer, your man, celebrate that every day? Do you have to go have a march and sort of sing the anthem?

Harry Jones: Nee, I'll tell you what it is. We have a bit of a deal, or a sort of a promise for a long time. We've gone to a lot of internationals together. And this is our deal. Whoever wins can't be, insert descriptor here.

Gráinne Seoige: Thank you.

Harry Jones: And whoever loses is allowed a period of time in which to be sad, but cannot be too cranky about it, has to sort of get over it. So that has stood us in good stead. Like I would say that when we left the stadium in Saint-Denis in 2023, you know, that I had to really sort of rein things in. But likewise, when we were in Loftus the following year, and it was one of the most intimidating atmospheres I ever experienced in my life. And that, you know, I got a great bargain that day. But your countrymen were not so gracious. I was on the RER back to Paris from Saint-Denis on the 13-8 win, where Damian de Allende was telling the ref we had the balls available, we can play, we can win. No. And everyone was just singing songs in my ear. I was literally just sitting there. I was a magnet for whatever reason. And they're just singing right in my face. And I was just like, I'm going to see you fuckers in the final.

On Irish Singing and Emotion

Gráinne Seoige: Can I just pick you up on the singing thing?

Harry Jones: Yeah.

Gráinne Seoige: So that evening, we weren't expecting that victory. I think a lot of Irish people, we were hoping for a great match, maybe a draw. Nobody wanted to hurt themselves. You know, remember, it was the group stages. We were fairly confident that we'd both get out of the group. So it was like a case of let's just try and get out of Dodge in one piece here. And then the match finished. And then the French DJ put on Zombie. And the thing is about Irish people, we sing when we're happy. We also sing when we're not. We sing. If we, if you're carrying on in a house in Ireland, after a certain amount of whiskey has been drunk, somebody will start to sing or somebody will come under pressure to sing. And then the next person will sing and the next person will sing. It's just part of our national personality. And I could see that there were South Africans around me who were sort of being made angry by this outpouring of emotion. But it really wasn't personal. It was just us expressing the shock of this win. Because now we start to believe, all of a sudden we believe that maybe, maybe we could actually do this. And I have to say, you know, when the quarterfinals came and we lost, I was devastated for about 10 days. Devastated. And then the following night, we sat down to watch your match and I had to go, go Bokke. And I did. I mean, I was delighted for you guys. I was delighted for Leon. But, you know, I suppose all of these outpourings are because you care. And it's how we share it in different ways. It's very passionate. Correct me. Is it, is the, is the word, a ceilidh, where you sing in a pub?

Harry Jones: A ceilidh is, is the dancing where a load of people get together. There's a band in the corner and we have all these great dances. A session is where you're in a pub and there might be three or four people in the corner with instruments, like we'll say a fiddle and a tin whistle and a bodhrán. And then they play. And then somebody might pipe up in the other corner. And it's magic if you go into a pub and you find that. It's great.

Gráinne Seoige: I think that on the RER, there was a session that turned into a ceilidh and I was an involuntary dancing partner for several young bucks. And I put a couple of them in a headlock and made them kiss. Then it turned into a bit of a brawl. So my thinking about all this.

Harry Jones: Sounds like a great night.

Gráinne Seoige: Sounds like a great night. We became friends, actually. It was fun.

On Underdogs and Talent Drain

Harry Jones: You know, I think about this as well, which is to be sort of stolen from or noticed or external validation. When you're the underdog and when you're sort of far, far away, I suppose for a young man to make it, like a Robbie Henshaw, I think who came from maybe that area of the world, you get called to Leinster, you're called to Dublin. You know, that's the big city, bright lights. And this is happening all across.

Gráinne Seoige: Yeah, exactly. So it's a double-edged sword. Like when you get good enough, then, you know, the big city or foreign places call. So this is the story of the Free State. This is the story of South Africa, of, you know, farm boys that are noticed now when they're 14, 15. How do you balance that? I mean, you want to go see the world, but you also want to stay home. There's something about going home and sticking up for Galway that I imagine is deep in your soul.

Harry Jones: Yeah, there's a couple of things that are deep in our souls, and that is the want to travel. There are Irish people everywhere, everywhere. You're in the US. You can't walk down the street without seeing an O'Reilly's or a Murphy's. You know, the Irish pubs are there for a reason because Irish people arrived there. And the South Africans are becoming like that now. There are South Africans all over Galway and all over Ireland. And they're very, very popular because they're incredibly hardworking and honest and straight and true. And then they go nuts when the rugby's on. That's fine. But I suppose the thing is, you know, we had Robbie Henshaw for a while. We were very proud of him. And then Leinster came and they had more money. And, you know, rugby is a game. It's also a business. And every game might be your last. So you've got to try and make hay while the sun is shining. And, you know, I, for one, had no problem with that. I suppose, you know, we're lucky that we have people like, OK, he's injured right now, but Mack Hansen. I mean, he was a find by Andy Friend. And he was, you know, I think he tells the story himself. He was surfing in Australia and kind of doing nothing when he got this phone call. And now he's a Lion. And he's one of the best known rugby players in the world. And he brings us something kind of different, which is really important. And Bundee as well. And even, I mean, we're back to Leinster again, but Jamison Gibson-Park has famously said, I couldn't kick snow off a rope when I came to Leinster. You know, and let's talk about CJ Stander. You know, he came over and he was told, you're too small, you'll never make it. And then he came over and showed the people, you can go elsewhere and be of use. And I think the different, one of the different big differences between Ireland and South Africa is your sheer population. And also the genetic blessings that you have in terms of, we'll say your Brits Roux's, your Pieter-Steph types, and then your Bongis and your Oxes in the front row. And then your lekkerbacks. I think they're probably born with scrum caps on their heads at this stage, are they? Who knows for the lekkerbacks?

MW Welman: Well done. My life is not complete. Gráinne just said lekkerbacks. I mean, we can go retire now. I was watching a school's game the other day, actually. And I think it was Garsfontein who beat Affies. And there's this young lad coming up the wing with his scrum cap on. And I believe he was given a scholarship to come up from the Cape. So, you know, everybody's waking up to the beauty of that. And you guys are just so blessed. Look at that alignment camp that Rassie just named. Talk about waving appendage around. What is it, 80-odd names?

Harry Jones: All the false, the defamation and slander about, you know, what we take and what's the doping and so forth, they're looking in the wrong place. It's in the actual scrum cap. That's where we are imbuing our young lads with the special swivel-hipped power and supernatural strength.

MW Welman: I thought it was the droëwors you give the children when they're teething.

Harry Jones: Yeah, washed down with sweetened condensed milk. Gráinne, while we're at it, we're thinking of a new name for the bearded rugby players. Because Harry had an incident with his barber, which you'll know about by now. But we're talking about, you know, the rugby players whose powers are in their beards, like Samson, it was in his hair.

Gráinne Seoige: Yes.

MW Welman: So help us come up with a nice name there, like lekkerbacks or something. We're struggling a little bit. So if you have a thought about it, just, you know, get back to us on that.

Gráinne Seoige: Yeah, leave it with me.

On South African Hospitality

MW Welman: So Gráinne, the Irish embrace is tight. My experience of being there is, once you are in, and you're accepted, and you've made friends, it's an incredibly tight embrace. And it permits a lot of, you know, real talk. It's not small talk. I don't think the Irish are into that. I think they get very deep very quickly. I think that's a similarity. What have you experienced coming the other way around? You know, how have you found the Praetorian welcome and the highveld in terms of making friends and such?

Gráinne Seoige: The brilliant thing for me is that the hospitality here is incredible. And it's a very real and intense hospitality as well, because unlike Irish culture, which is going out, it's pub culture. You're out in a public setting. Entertaining here is very much in the home. So it's not a quick drink and I'm heading. You arrive with your cooler box and you're there for four or five hours easily. And so then you're having deep, meaningful chats quite quickly as well. A couple of glasses of wine. And girls, of course, are great friends almost immediately. You're talking about, you know, how long you were in labour or, you know, whatever. We get there very, very quickly. So I've felt so welcomed from the get-go and it's absolutely fantastic. It really, really is.

Harry Jones: Yeah, that's a great observation about the MW of the... How you cannot easily escape from a braai. So the Irish goodbye, the Irish farewell is famous around the world because you're at a pub, you just go to the loo and you never come back. But this is not possible in...

Gráinne Seoige: No, you've got three other cars have to back out of the drive so you can leave. It's a whole thing.

On Loftus 2024

MW Welman: Sorry, I want to digress a little bit before you go on. Going back to that Loftus thing, I can't stop thinking about it because that specific game was you know, standard game he was here. It's actually right after he and I started talking to each other. We knew each other three weeks by then. If I remember correctly, and the week after he was in Durban as well. And I still remember, he had to stop on the way back driving up from Durban and he had to stop at an Engen or something, do a podcast from an Engen when he was so depressed. And the likes it. I want to talk to you about that Loftus game a little bit more because that was a big banner. Why was it so intimidating? What was different? Because I had some Irish friends over there as well. Other Irish, John Robbie, Seán Larkin, people saying that they've never experienced an atmosphere like that. What made it so special, do you think?

Gráinne Seoige: Y'all was quacked. Yeah. Y'all was quacked. You guys were like, you have it coming. You so have it coming. And then you're walking in and it actually felt claustrophobic. And there were so few Irish there. I don't know if you noticed that on the day. I think I saw less than 10 other people wearing the same shade of green as me. And it was, I'd say, a good 98 percent South African. And there was a point to prove. And it felt claustrophobic for me. And it was the one time where I was sort of a little bit like this in my seat, genuinely. And I had that feeling that I sort of had. But the opposite when the English came to Croke Park, the first time the English played us in Croke Park. And there was this feeling in the crowd, you're not winning this one. You're just not winning this one. And that's it. And that was the same sense I had. I mean, it was great the week after, but, you know, getting out of Dodge the way we did. But that day in particular, it was like there was a point to be proven. And it was proven. And the planes, I mean, that, to me, is always sort of the highlight. Because they live right next to Loftus, they used to.

Harry Jones: Yeah, the planes, that's such a, I suppose, a hallmark of big South African games. I suppose that was a bit of a compliment to Ireland that we got a plane, you know, when you think back to the great days when they are flown overhead. And I suppose the other thing that sticks with me is the sunset was amazing that day. And the rendition of the anthem that night was, it gave me tingles. Hoendervleis, gave me hoendervleis. It was really, really powerful. I suppose it's amazing to be able to say we're there. It's a privilege to be at matches like that. Because they are part of sporting history. I think that's where we are now, Ireland and South Africa, every time we meet each other. It's a bit of a, you know, a line in the sand or a mark in the ground. That's where we've come to in the last few years. These are big sporting occasions. So to be able to be amongst the few, we're lucky to be there, is great. It really is.

Gráinne Seoige: You're not alone in the feeling of Loftus being an intimidating prospect, even for home games. If you're from some other region, it can feel like that. You know, going in and someone says, is jy 'n Kapenaar and you're like, oh, is he a commie? So the quickness of pegging you into a particular compartment. It's the world's greatest abattoir. The smells, you're being led into slaughter.

On Loftus and the Springbok Experience

Gráinne: And the choke points are so small into the stadium. Once you're in, of course, the expanse is wonderful. The sky, it's a beautiful stadium to be in. And the no need for any kind of encouragement by an MC or a DJ, because it's such a roar. And then the average size, weight and height of the people there are spectacular. You know, you're among the largest beasts of the rugby kingdom.

Andrew Mehrtens: That being said, I was wondering about sort of how that plays out for you nowadays. Like, you know, obviously, when you're playing Ireland, then your heart's torn. But in general, have you become a Bok fan now? Are you converted all the way?

Gráinne: Just to be clear, my heart is not torn. My heart is never torn.

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, that's my Duida spun, like you're my second team. If you're playing anybody else, I'll cheer for you.

Gráinne: But no, I'm very, very clear on what shade of green I bleed. And it's of the emerald variety. But yeah, no, I'm a huge fan of Springbok rugby. You'd have to be if you like rugby at all. You have to be a fan of the people who do it best. And it's not just the rugby either. It's the whole culture around it. It's Rassie and that cult he has built around him. It's the fact that you can't walk into a chemist or a pet store or a bottle store in South Africa without seeing a cardboard cut out of some player or other standing there offering you vitamins or dog food. It is it's all encompassing over here. You cannot avoid rugby. And, you know, there's Bok Fridays where everybody gets dressed up and you're talking about from the newborns to the tannies all with their gear on. And it's there's a level of buy in here that we don't have in Ireland. We just don't have it in Ireland. It really is a part of your national identity. And I admire that, even though it's hard sometimes to be the odd one out, particularly if we are playing each other. But I do it. I do admire it.

On Rassie's Transformation

Gráinne: And what he's achieved, Rassie in particular, is incredible. Like I was in South Africa in 2016, 2017 when the jerseys were being burnt, you know, when the people who are from South Africa, but, you know, like the All Blacks were very loud and proud with their jerseys. You know, I remember that time and what's happened. You know, there's talk about transformation, but that is a transformation all of itself. And yeah, and I think if he stood for election tomorrow, he'd be president of the Republic of South Africa. I definitely do.

Andrew Mehrtens: So we do have you down. Clear is that you prefer the diluted, paler form of green, not the robust, dark green that we have. So we're clear on that.

Gráinne: I love my eyes. There you go. I love the paler. Yeah, that's like three percent of the human population.

On Why Sport Matters

Andrew Mehrtens: So I love the fact that you on the on the scolding letter that you sent, that you said it just matters so much to me. And I'm interested in that part. Why does this thing we call sport, this game, the simulation of combat, this folkloric battle of cross nations and time, why does it matter so much? Why does it call us and why does it bring you to sit down with your valuable time and write something like that?

Gráinne: I think I love history and human beings have fought, you know, from the very early days in a garden called Eden or just outside of humans have fought. And I think this is a very controlled way of getting that out. We don't have hangings in the town square anymore or people fighting to the death, you know, in an amphitheatre. Well, we have rugby and we have, you know, I suppose, a way of showing the world who you are through the 15 men who takes the field and then the six more forwards who come on later in the second half of expressing who you are, your seven. And so I think that's important as an outlet for humans. And, you know, I suppose the beauty in our style is very different to your style. And, you know, Rassie has referred to the Irish as being clever before. And it was a dig. It was. Let's be honest, it was a dig. We have a saying in Irish, and is é nach bhfuil láidir is gá dó a bheith glic. And it means he was not strong. Better be clever. And I think that's where we have tried to play to our strengths. You know, we can't can't go through you an awful lot of the time. We can go around possibly sometimes. And that's what we try to do. It's intricate. It's for us. It's beautiful. And, you know, I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you think is beautiful might be slightly different to what we like. So I think that's the beauty of sport as well. It's a way of of expressing yourself nationally and internationally.

Andrew Mehrtens: Now, you could also say if you're going to be stupid, you've got to be tough. And I love the idioms of countries. And by the way, I'll talk to whatever you said. It it has a lot of sounds in it that could lend itself to speaking Afrikaans.

Gráinne: No, for sure. We have the ch sound and we have the gh sound. So that definitely helps the accent. And there was a guy who was I think it was was he coach Gert Smal? Everybody called him in Ireland. And my father in law got right on now. So I learned how to say that very, very quickly.

On Irish Traditions and Death

Andrew Mehrtens: The other thing that you said in that letter that mattered to me was you said that Irish that no one does death quite like Ireland. And it's an interesting meditation of reverence for things that have gone before and that when we are laid to rest, we don't just evaporate. You know, maybe that's good for us. Oh, man. Oh, man. I like an MV and I that we don't want to feel like we'd be erased. You know, talk to me a bit about that as the tradition, the love of tradition and how that plays out in in rugby.

Gráinne: I think, you know, first of all, I'd like to give you the context or give people watching and listening the context. It was in the context of, you know, the big loss that the Stormers community had recently should be Solomon's past. And, you know, again, my deepest condolences to everybody who knew him and loved him and felt his, you know, his hand in their life, because he clearly was such an influential guy. In Ireland, we really value the generations that have gone ahead of us, and we have a very strong oral tradition of talking about the people who have gone ahead of us. So just because they're gone from the land of the living doesn't mean they're gone. We don't wipe them away. We talk about them all of the time. We that's why funerals, Irish funerals are some of the best fun that you can have, because while grieving, we bring up all the stories of their life, all the things that they did that were funny or disasters that they had. And it helps us to feel close to them. So, you know, and in Ireland, if somebody passes away, people will come from Australia for a funeral. People will come from California for a funeral. And funeral masses are live streamed all over the world for people who can't make it home. It's a really important part of us showing respect. And that's what I said. That's why I said to you, you know, everything that the Connacht contingent did when they arrived, they meant it because it's it's it's how we're reared. It's how we're taught to behave. You know, we have we still do it. You know, when somebody passes away, they may lie in the house on the on the kitchen table in their coffin for a night and everybody will come around and have tea and other cultures will think that's weird and strange. But it's a way of being close to that person and of, I suppose. Taking in the fact that they're gone. But they're still with you, and I think it's a beautiful thing. I really, really do.

Andrew Mehrtens: Directly from the family, I can tell you, Gráinne, that they really appreciated it, not just your words in specifically, which I relayed, but also the provinces and some of the official expressions. They felt like it was far beyond the norm and it wasn't just rote or performative. It was true and good. And that meant a lot. It meant a lot to Pearl and to her children.

On Team and Community

Andrew Mehrtens: You know, I think it's interesting as well when you when you become part of a team and you really sink into it, you get to know each other's lives really well. You've been obviously part of that with with Leon being a coach and you know how deep that is. I know we've kind of we've heard the story about Axel Foley, you know, from afar, but also Rassie's experience of it. There's something about it beyond just simulations of battle gone by. There's something very intimate about being part of a team. And I also got that, I think, from what you said to me as well. It just it mattered so much also because you feel for these guys. You know, what a triumph, what an unexpected win in Cape Town. Talk me through that. It was completely unexpected.

Gráinne: It was completely unexpected. It was completely unexpected. I think I said to you in the letter that there were a total of 12 Irish international caps on the field that day between Cian Prendergast and Dara Murray and up against 100 plus Springbok caps. I mean, it was a complete David and Goliath situation. And we're very aware of that as we chase the top eight. And we may or may not make it. And it's the community. And you would have seen it, I'm sure. You know, there's a little group of Connacht supporters there. And I saw Stuart Lancaster talking after the match. He said they're all in the dressing room, actually. They're all in the dressing room with the team. So it is that thing of when you join the club, you become part of a community straight away. And Leon has, you know, told me about that, that the minute you walk in, it's like you're brought into a family. No questions asked. No, you know, you're in and that's it. And then everybody belonging to you is also in. And that feeling is incredible because we're pack animals as humans. We don't like to be, you know, no man is a rock. No man is an island. We all like to be part of something greater than ourselves. And I think there's nothing like being part of a community. And that's what rugby does really, really well. Whether it's your small club at home, your province, your national team or getting to know people from the other side of the world who also like the same sport.

On Stuart Lancaster and Irish Rugby

Andrew Mehrtens: How did Connacht get Stuart Lancaster to begin to be the director of rugby?

Gráinne: Who knows what kind of carrot they dangled ahead of them? But whatever they did, I, I, I approved that message. I think he'd be the perfect person to take over from Andy Farrell if and when Andy Farrell eventually leaves, because there's a continuity there in terms of style. It's almost like. I don't know, there's something quite. I like the way Connacht are playing now because it'll actually fit into the Irish way even better than it did lately, which hopefully will mean that more of the very young lads that are playing for Connacht will have an easier time of it getting in. I think Ulster have a bit, you know, a bit of that as well. We've seen the success of Ulster players this year. I think maybe it's coming back to bite them now. But so many of them playing for Ireland, it's wonderful. I think I don't know if it's all coming a little bit late for next year. And but we are working with a much smaller playing pool than you guys. I think Rassie said we have fifteen hundred in South Africa playing professional rugby. They have one hundred and fifty in Ireland. What we're doing on every time we take the field is kind of amazing. It really is. Objectively.

On Playing Positions and Favourite Players

Andrew Mehrtens: If you were playing rugby right now, what position would you play?

Gráinne: Oh, I definitely be in the backs anyway. You be in the backs a little, a little bit of speed. Fullback.

Andrew Mehrtens: I've always said that the fullback is the alter ego of the coach. And so whoever that that is, if it's an actual like longstanding fullback relationship, that's the coach. That's what he thinks. That's how he wants to play himself. Which is why, you know, yeah. So for Rassie, it's like Willie le Roux, Willemse, Sasha Fassie, you know, really out there, you know, no holding back. And I suppose for Andy Farrell, then it would be Hugo Keenan. You know, yes. I kind of soft spoken, gets the job done. Super fit. Ready to go. Who's your favourite? Yes. Yeah. OK. Who's your favourite Irish player right now in the national setup?

Gráinne: Oh, it's a really good question. Jeepers, it's hard because obviously straight away, you know, I do really rate and I think he's going to be fantastic for us. And maybe a future captain is Cian Prendergast. Honestly, I think he's such an honest player. He really throws himself in amongst us. He like I thought he was immense, actually, kept on the other day. And I just think he has a great way of dealing with the referee, which we aren't always blessed with in Ireland. So I think he's got Captain written on him in the future. Definitely.

Andrew Mehrtens: Wouldn't that be funny if Cian is the one that makes it big over the long term instead of Sam, who was, you know, the wunderkind? I like Cian because he talks a lot of, you know, he chirps and he and he hits and he's brutal. But then at the end, you can tell all the Stormers players like him and admire him and he's walking through the locker room and presented the jersey. So there's something quite likeable about him, maybe a little bit almost like a South African.

Gráinne: Oh, well, that's the highest praise you can give somebody, isn't it? Tough on the field. But afterwards, you know, all is forgotten. And we're good friends again. Do you want to ask me who my favourite South African player is?

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, go for it.

Gráinne: I have two, really. Pieter, I love Pieter Steph. I love Pieter Steph. Myself and my husband have a couple of phrases that he has said. You know, that is your ball. I love that one. Is your body to see? And then the famous day where the referee, he was captain and the referee was showing him, well, you can take a penalty from here or you. And he just goes, where's Scott? What was the Scott? Yeah, I, I love that. And then of the new generation, I suppose, André Esterhuizen, I think is amazing.

Andrew Mehrtens: I was like watching Pieter Steph, the toy, and I always say what it does at the national level in the big games that matter, the matches that really matter. The way he plays makes me cry. And it literally makes him cry. And I think it's the quiet emotion from a quiet guy. But inside, it's so full of emotion. That's how he plays. That's why he gets the Malmesbury missile only plays that big on the big matches. And he does things that are super superhuman. So André Esterhuizen would be a great example of genetics, sort of where you go. How can a guy be that big and still be that, you know, back line-ish? And I noticed that that he's someone people admire. And I'm looking at other teams now. They're trying to copy that.

On Ireland's Six Nations Campaign

Andrew Mehrtens: So I'm looking forward now for Ireland. There was this big, you know, discussion about how they peaked too soon. Had Andy lost the change room? You know, is it time to move on? And then, you know, you absolutely destroy England at Twickenham. And it's all fun and games again. You know, just take us through what you think. What's happening next in Ireland?

Gráinne: If you can't get up for England, we got a bad fright in France. We started to we started very, very slowly. And I mean, the thing is that the French usually win the Six Nations the year after the Lions tours. That's a fact. So we were heading in with that. And I think definitely a lot of our players were sluggish and tired and not up to snuff at all at the start of the championships and then got progressively better. And the other thing is we've been screaming for change for a long time. Most Irish fans wanting to see new people in the jerseys because of the fact that, you know, Andy is very loyal and and that that is a great quality. But I think people felt we needed more change and we needed more depth. And that wasn't coming through. And obviously, then we had our problems in front row as well. Then the injuries came and then the changes came by hook or by crook. And actually, they worked out really well, didn't they? Bundee was out for one reason or another. And then we got Stuart McCloskey and he produced some of the great moments of the championship. Mack was out, but then we got O'Brien and Hugo Keenan was out. And we just got a different feel. And then, you know, people like Van der Flier got left out, warming the pine one week, came back the next. It was a different man. And I think that little jolt was good for them. And that little thing of, you know, it doesn't belong to you forever. I think, you know, some of them maybe needed to hear that and maybe they actually genuinely needed the rest as well. But I think we must now build on that. We a couple of new guys have come through. They need to be worked in more and more. And I think the thing is that there is more pressure on Andy Farrell every year to do very well in the Six Nations. It's not like we can take a year or two to experiment and just throw kids in, because it's very important financially to the IRFU to do well. There's a lot of prize money at stake. So it's it's a balancing act. But I'm I'm happier now than I was. And the England game was just great.

On Music at Rugby Matches

Andrew Mehrtens: See, I love that we're actually just talking rugby. You know, before this thing, before this episode kicked off, you know, we were wondering, how do we how do we design this? How do we do this? The fact of the matter is we're just three people sitting here talking about rugby. It's a proper rugby chat. I love that. But I do want to digress a little bit into the arts and culture. My my co-host, my wonderful friend, Envia, who is really a wonderful man. He has one blind spot, which is he hates DJs and music in the rugby match. And we call him the Don Quixote. He's he's tilting at windmills about this issue. My God, you know, shouting at clouds. It's going to happen. Could you maybe take over that function, DJ Gráinne, and come in and like rock Loftus and and bring it, bring it into modern times?

Gráinne: Yeah, but Envia would never speak to me again. As long as you don't play Sweet Caroline, I'll be fine.

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, no, don't worry. I will never, ever play Sweet Caroline. I can promise you that. I honestly don't think Loftus is the worst place. I think Durban is probably the most music heavy venue, isn't it really?

Gráinne: Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's it's just one song after another. It's designed around the various beer gardens, swing pools and fan zones. It has no relation to the actual match itself. So you could be convening the most important scrum of everyone's life and there would be some sort of Mumbai pop or K-pop going on. You're wondering, where are we? What's happening?

Andrew Mehrtens: What do you have to say? You were one of the guys who was very, very cross with the fact that that second match was played in Durban. I think you were, weren't you?

Gráinne: Yeah. Yeah. So I went with foreboding. You know, I had I was buoyed by the scrum Palooza, the scrum that shook the world, the scrum that changed everything and put Ireland in a scrum crisis they haven't come out of. And it was so wonderful, you know, to drive across the Drakensberg, go down to the coast. But then I just had this sinking feeling of the crowd is going to come in, not even knowing the laws of rugby. It's just going to be a vibe. And then we're going to have something happen. And a flittering, fluttering, frolly kick that had no business going over, you know, just squeaks over. And then and then they shout at Pieter Steph, the poor man. I still haven't got over it. I want rectification. I want redemption. I want retaliation forever.

Andrew Mehrtens: You already had it last November. You had it last November.

Gráinne: We need more. We need the head must be held down in the mud longer. All in good fun, though, in a friendly way.

Andrew Mehrtens: It is. Defend yourself, man. Defend yourself from this. No, I'm I'm proudly anti sweet Caroline. I've never said that. Edgar's actually acknowledged my, Edgar Marutlulle has acknowledged my antipathy, antipathy, that's the right word. Yeah, that one.

On Provincial Loyalties

Andrew Mehrtens: So what I wanted to ask, you live in Pretoria now, and I asked you in all innocence the other day, would you support now locally? And let me be old. You went for the Sharks. I mean, I was shocked to my core. I can live. Pretoria be married to an Afrikaans-speaking person and not support the Bulls and support the Sharks? I mean, something's wrong there. Tell me about that.

Gráinne: Okay, so in my defence, I inherited the Sharks from my husband who grew up just outside of Durban, so they were always his team. And, you know, the opposite side of being a Blue Bull is that it's a little bit like Leinster. You know, a lot of people don't like the Bulls, let's be honest. And I suppose I was brought into that camp very early on. And there I stayed. But maybe now that I'm here, maybe I need to venture out and choose my heirspan. And, you know, and maybe I am a Pretoria Mousie now, maybe. Maybe I will be Blue from here on.

Andrew Mehrtens: Break out of the cult.

Gráinne: That was so diplomatic, so smooth.

Andrew Mehrtens: You bought that. If I asked the same question for the Stormers, I should get the same answer, man. This is not real. Don't believe it. I know where she lives, more or less. I can find her.

Gráinne: He'll arrive with the earrings in the next few days for me now. We'll know that. The big one.

On Food and Cuisine

Andrew Mehrtens: We would be remiss if we don't cover cuisine. Tell us about, you know, what proper tastes that you think. What's the best place to go in Pretoria to just have a really, really good meal if you're first time there?

Gráinne: Honestly, I can't remember the last time I ate out. It's usually going to other people's homes for a braai. I have to say a shout out to Yanni and everybody at Square Time. That is a great place to go and have something to eat and watch a match.

Andrew Mehrtens: Do you know what NBA? At Menlyn Maine, that one.

Gráinne: No, it's it's farther out in the east. Square Time. It's lovely. It's yeah, by Boardwalk. Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. It's good fun. And it's yeah, it is. It's lovely. But mostly I eat a lot of braai vleis and I make bobotie myself. And that's a winner.

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, that's a good bobotie. Yeah, that's impressive. Talk us through that, because I just want to hear about it. Just take us through your bobotie. Don't reveal any secrets, though.

Gráinne: There isn't an awful lot. That's the secret. In fact, I bring bobotie mix to my mother now and she makes it in Ireland. We have it on Christmas Eve because you can make it the day before and then do the whole turkey thing on Christmas Day. So, yeah, the balls, all the sambals, everything. Probably my favourite meal apart from braai vleis, to be honest. I love it. I love bobotie.

Andrew Mehrtens: I have to say, yeah, I love the idea of Ireland being invaded one bobotie at a time on Christmas Day.

Gráinne: Yeah, from the inside out.

Closing Thoughts

Andrew Mehrtens: But listen, I feel that this rapprochement has been incredible, been complete. I feel forgiven, pardoned. I feel like I've grown as a person. And I also think that there's something wonderful in people engaging as rivals and maybe even telling someone that they went too far here or there and actually doing it, instead of what we seem to be hurling insults at each other on social media. And everyone's just got to stop that. It doesn't do us any favours at all. It doesn't build any bridges. And it's been wonderful to chat with you. Listen, at this point in time, all I can say is I will always watch Connacht a little bit differently. I see them differently. And that's the cool thing. I don't even think I had an opinion one way or the other until now. And, you know, suddenly now look at them as one of those things. I want them to beat Leinster now. I really cannot wait for that.

Gráinne: How could you not want that anyway?

Andrew Mehrtens: I just didn't care one way or the other. Not really. I don't really want that. Neither you nor they. As long as some of one of them lose, you know.

Gráinne: That's very revealing, lads. That's very revealing. You've successfully shuffled the whole, you know, how we see the Irish Affirmative now differently. You know, now I want Connacht to be there. All those guys now.

Andrew Mehrtens: Good. I'll take it. That was well worth my time then as well.

Gráinne: No, it's true. It's actually one of the things I enjoy the most about doing this thing on Megafon and on YouTube is getting to know other teams and cultures and understanding it. But we spoke to Pat McCarry last week, and he also gave us a bit of a behind the scenes look, which I enjoyed. We're having great battles with our internet. I said to Harry, or Harry said to me, when you speak to Martin Devlin in New Zealand, the connection is better than it is when I speak to you just down the road.

Andrew Mehrtens: Yeah, so sorry for that. That's just, that's South Africa for you. So we've been struggling a little bit. There might be a bit of a delay. So thank you very much for making time for us. It was an absolutely awesome conversation. Thank you.

Gráinne: Thank you, gentlemen. I really, really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me and see you down the road.

Andrew Mehrtens: For sure. That's happening. Yeah, we'll make it happen. This is the Lekker Rugby Pod. Only on Megafon Rugby.